tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Wed Nov 25 14:41:55 2009

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Re: The topic marker -'e'

Tracy Canfield (toastrix@gmail.com)



Did I say that?  I thought I said "maHvaD".

2009/11/25 Christopher Doty <suomichris@gmail.com>:
> Huh, yeah, I guess I could have said something different, but I kind
> of like what I said :p
>
> I don't get -vaD as being "for the benefit of," just "for, intended for"...
>
> I'd say
>
>>    yIHvaD may' 'oH may' quvHa''e'
>
> Would be "As for a dishonorable battle, it is a battle for tribbles
> (as opposed to, say, warriors)" instead of
>
>>    As for a dishonorable battle, it is a battle, for the benefit of tribbles.
>
> as you said.  Am I still missing something here?
>
> On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 14:12, David Trimboli <david@trimboli.name> wrote:
>> Christopher Doty wrote:
>>> On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 13:34, David Trimboli <david@trimboli.name> wrote:
>>>> Christopher Doty wrote:
>>>>> Huh...  It's not a N-N construction, though; the <yIHHomvaD> and the
>>>>> <may'> aren't in a N-N phrase?
>>>> But that's how you've used it. The first noun modifies the meaning of
>>>> the second noun. What kind of {may'} "battle" is it? It's a *{yIHHomvaD
>>>> may'} "minor tribble battle." That's the use of the noun–noun
>>>> construction, but the first noun isn't allowed a Type 5 suffix.
>>>> Beneficiaries (and locatives, etc.) only modify verbs.
>>>>
>>>> Now, there *are* a couple of phrases on the Bird of Prey poster which do
>>>> this, and I'm not surprised, given that it started as a list of English
>>>> noun phrases to be translated. (I have no doubt that Okrand fell into
>>>> the same trap you did.)
>>  >
>>  > I still see them as separate, though... I'm not using one to modify
>>  > the battle, I'm saying (or trying to) that the battle is to be given
>>  > over to tribbles, not that a dishonorable battle is a tribble battle.
>>
>> Oh! Let's see...
>>
>>    yIHvaD may' 'oH may' quvHa''e'
>>    As for a dishonorable battle, it is a battle, for the benefit of
>>    tribbles.
>>
>> This doesn't carry the sense of the battle being "given over to"
>> tribbles. It means that a dishonorable is a battle, for the benefit of
>> tribbles. The tribbles benefit from the dishonorable being a battle.
>>
>> My dictionary tells me that "give over" is an informal British phrase
>> meaning to stop doing something. I know the phrase, but it doesn't
>> spring immediately to my American English-thinking mind. It seems
>> idiomatic to me.
>>
>> Some other ways to say what I think you're trying to say:
>>
>>    batlhHa' Suv yIH 'e' yIchaw'
>>    Let tribbles fight a dishonorable battle.
>>
>>    batlhHa' Suv yIH neH
>>    Only tribbles fight dishonorably.
>>
>> --
>> SuStel
>> tlhIngan Hol MUSH
>> http://trimboli.name/mush
>>
>>
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