tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Mon Jul 27 15:29:54 2009

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Re: 'oQqar pe'pu'bogh; naQHommey rur ghIq mIQpu'

David Trimboli (david@trimboli.name) [KLI Member] [Hol po'wI']



qe'San (Jon Brown) wrote:
> From: "David Trimboli" <david@trimboli.name>
>> qe'San (Jon Brown) wrote:
>>> From: "David Trimboli" <david@trimboli.name>
>>>> qe'San (Jon Brown) wrote:
>>>>> What I'd like to know is, does anyone understand my following
>>>>> sentence: 'oQqar pe'pu'bogh; naQHommey rur.  ghIq mIQpu'
>>>>> 
> [...]
>>> I had just wanted a word for, chips (UK)/fries (US) but as
>>> expected there wasn't a word so I thought I try a description
>>> which sort of came out more like a preparation intruction
>>> to me I thought I was saying, "root cut like sticks then
>>> deep-fried" trying to make it concise I clipped the Klingon but I
>>> see that was silly.
>>> 
>>>> 'oQqar naQ lumIQlu'pu'bogh
>>>> root's cane which is deep fried
>>> 
>>> I had played with 'oQqar naQ(Hom) but thought that could infer
>>> stick like roots with no cutting.
>> {N1 N2} is a genitive construction. It may mean possession, or it
>> may mean that N1 is a sub-type of N2. (What type of {Hol}?
>> {tlhIngan Hol}.) {'oQqar naQHom} could mean "the root's stick" or
>> it could mean "root-stick." The correct meaning must come from
>> context.
> 
> Thank you I had not known of the sub type for general use apart from
> where MO had used it. Because I'd thought I wasn't allowed to make
> that assumption I would only use my own N-N construction if I could
> stick with N2 of N1 or N1's N2. With regard to tlhIngan Hol,  I'd
> always seen it as Klingon's Language, Language of Klingon. Aside from
> this thread that is useful to know.

There are examples from Marc Okrand that make this very clear. The one I
always remember is {baS 'In} "metal percussion instrument" from KGT.
Both {baS} "metal" and {'In} "percussion instrument" are nouns, and the
phrase certainly does not mean "the metal's drum."

>>>> 'oQqar lupe'lu'pu'bogh 'ej lumIQlu'pu'bogh root which is cut
>>>> and which is deep-fried
>>> [.. ..] I'd attempted the rur type construction as I had thought
>>> cut root could imply chips (US)/crisps (UK) but then didn't know
>>> how a rur contruction could be used .
>> Why do you need to use {rur}?
> 
> My error. I just assumed that cut root was not suffiently descriptive
> so thought cut like sticks or even fingers would be needed for
> someone else to know I didn't mean US chips/UK crisps.

I don't question your desire to be more descriptive; I simply mean that
a "rur construction," a simile, may or may not be the right tool for the
job.

>>> As this example doesn't use a rur contruction couldn't the
>>> relative clause just avoid the use of 'ej/je altogether
>>> 
>>> 'oQqar lupe'lu'pe'bogh lumIQlu'pu'  - Deep-fried root which is
>>> cut
>> This says "cut roots are deep-fried." It is a complete sentence.
>> You cannot use it as a noun phrase in another sentence.
> 
> I was thinking if I couldn't get by with anything less than a
> complete sentence then I could at least use that with things like "I
> want that" or answers to "what is that?"
> 
>>> Thinking again about the use of naQ or confusion with naQHom
>>> maybe if I said cut like/resembling fingers it would be better
>>> and nearer..
>>> 
>>> 'oQqar lupe'lu'pu'bogh; nItlhDu' rur.  - root cut like fingers.
>>> 'ej ghIq lumIQlu'pu' - and then (they're) deep-fried
>> This says, "Cut roots; they resemble fingers."
> 
> I'm not sure what's wrong there or do you mean that I am saying
> "roots that resemble fingers are cut"?  If that's so I agree that is
> not what I want.

No, I mean you're trying to mimic Okrand's similes in KGT (pp. 127–133),
but you're doing it wrong. In every one of his similes he uses this format:

	<sentence expressing quality>; <noun phrase> rur

What you're doing is this:

	<noun phrase>; <noun phrase> rur

Okrand's similes are two complete sentences; yours are an isolated noun
phrase and a complete sentence. You should probably decide whether you
want an overall noun phrase (which you can plug into a sentence) or
complete sentences (which you can use independently).

-- 
SuStel
tlhIngan Hol MUSH
http://trimboli.name/mush







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