tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Tue May 02 12:55:34 2006
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quvHa'; ghe'tor ngan rur [was Re: Stovokor]
Voragh:
>Our two examples:
>
> qaStaHvIS wej puq poHmey vav puqloDpu' puqloDpu'chaj je quvHa'moH
> vav quvHa'ghach
> The dishonor of the father dishonors his sons and their sons for
> three generations. TKW
>
> quvHa'; ghe'tor ngan rur
> dishonored as an inhabitant of Gre'thor KGT
>
>{quvHa'} by itself is a quality referring to the final state of
>dishonor. It says nothing about how the state was achieved - i.e. did
>someone or something dishonor you {quvHa'moH} or did you dishonor yourself
>{QuvHa''eghmoH}?
ghunchu'wI':
> >how would your being in Grethor have anything to do with
> >someone else's having been dishonored?
Voragh:
> "According to mythology, when a dishonored Klingon dies, his
> or her spirit goes to a place called Gre'thor, there to remain.
> To speak of spirits escaping from Gre'thor is to speak of an
> impossibility." (KGT 117)
>
> "Fek'lhr is a somewhat ferocious mythological beast that guards
> the entrance to Gre'thor, the place where the spirits of the
> dishonored go." (KGT 130; cf. TKW 197)
>
> Kortar was captain of the mythical Barge of the Dead; he destroyed
> the gods who created him and as punishment he was condemned to
> ferry the dishonored dead to Gre'thor (VOY "Barge of the Dead).
>
> "This is the Barge of the Dead. Our dishonored souls are being
> taken to Gre'thor." (VOY "Barge of the Dead")
FWIW the word "dishonored" is consistently used, not
"dishonorable". Publicly disgraced, not morally defective.
>You know, we've always assumed that your own actions lands you in Gre'thor,
>but I wonder... Do Klingons believe that you can be dishonored by someone
>else's actions? E.g. a ship's crew being dishonored en masse by the
>cowardly behavior of their captain fleeing an overwhelming enemy in
>panic? (Perhaps the dishonor would arise if the crew failed to kill the
>coward and take their ship back into combat to - hopefully - die gloriously.)
DloraH:
>>But then, grammar aside for a minute, I have to ask, can one -cause-
>>somebody to be dishonored, or is it a result of that somebody's own actions?
>>Sure somebody can turn their back to you and officially pronounce you
>>"dishonored", but for you to go to ghe'tor would be a result of your own
>>action/inaction.
>>I wonder... perhaps /-lu'/ can represent the deeds. "your actions have
>>caused you to be dishonored" <= "(an unspecified subject) has caused you to
>>be dishonored".
Voragh:
>The TKW example proves you *can* be dishonored by someone else. Not to
>mention that Worf accepted discommendation and was officially dishonored
>by the alleged acts of his father Mogh (ENT "Sins of the Father").
DloraH:
>>But the reason for dishonoring them would be because of their
>>action/inaction. (In Worf's case it was his father's supposed action.)
Or even, supposedly, his own inaction even though he was a child at the
time of the Khitomer massacre.
Little Worf could have informed on his father to the security police or
tried to shame him into not
betraying the colony. ({vavoy, qatlh batlhha' bIvang?} <insert soulful or
indignant look, as appropriate>.)
>>Even though Worf was officially dishonored by the council, I think he would
>>not have gone to ghe'tor because really he nor his father actually did
>>anything wrong. You don't go to ghe'tor because of what other mortals think
>>of you.
Really? That sounds like a human reaction, and Klingons are -
theoretically - an alien race with their own inscrutable motivations and
thinking.
Whether or not Gre'thor actually exists, perhaps the fear of being
condemned to Gre'thor - actually or merely publicly - explains why Klingons
are so paranoid about their honor/reputation. A legacy from the days of
superstition, perhaps? BTW humans, or at least some of them, have the same
concept. Doesn't excommunication - a public penalty imposed due to what
other mortals think of you due to your actions or thoughts, {nadHa'ghach}
"discommendation" IOW - place you outside the Church and, therefore,
condemn you to Hell? (I.e. *extra ecclesia nulla salus* "outside the
Church there is no salvation".) I wonder if {naDHa'ghach} had any
supernatural effect in the past.
There is also the related Klingon verb {yem} "sin". Since modern Klingons
no longer have any gods and, presumably, no idea of sinning against them,
we've never quite understood how the word is used. At least not until KGT:
In the Krotmag dialect, {yeb} (wrist) is pronounced {yem},
identical to the verb {yem} (sin). In parallel fashion, {ngIb}
(ankle) is pronounced {ngIm}, identical to the verb {ngIm} (be
putrid). Thus, the wrist gained an association with sinning,
or dishonorable behavior; the ankle, with putridity, perhaps
moral decay. (KGT 166f.)
... those who violate the rules of their own cultures and do
not observe their own virtues are acting dishonorably and are
not to be trusted. (TKW 189)
... those who are found to have violated the rules of society
are often punished by being forced to do particularly strenuous
or distasteful work. (TKW 190)
For modern Klingons {yem} probably means "act dishonorably or violate the
rules or traditions of one's own culture or society". Our sole example
comes from KCD:
bIyem'a'
Will you sin? (KCD Language Lab)
Some context is given in the KCD novelization "Star Trek: Klingon!" (p. 23f.):
Then speaking to Pok, but looking directly into Vok's face,
[K'Tar] said, "Throw this {veQ} out."
Pok stood and moved toward Vok, reaching for the unwanted guest.
"{bIyem'a'!}" Vok said.
Pok stopped short of grabbing Vok...
"The celebration," Vok said, "was declared a *lop'no*. You have
invited the spirits of all our Klingon ancestors. Tradition
dictates that all are welcome to the *lop'no*. Even ancient rivals.
Even me, K'Tar."
"{Chut Quj}," K'Tar said.
"{Luq ratlh}," Pok said, almost spitting his words at Vok.
[{luq, ratlh} is of course, "Fine. He stays." {chut Quj} may be a Clipped
Klingon order to her son: {chut yIQuj} "Play by the rules (of law)", "Obey
the law", etc. - though I would have expected {pab} "follow (rules), adhere
to" here: *{lurDech yIpab}.]
--
Voragh
Ca'Non Master of the Klingons