tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Tue Apr 17 10:50:58 2012
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Re: [Tlhingan-hol] The Lord's Prayer
At 01:23 '?????' 4/17/2012, you wrote:
As the Butterfly translation had actually been published on-line, I
wanted to focus on that one first.
9 Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Suto'vo'qorDaq SoHtaH vavmaj; ponglIj quvmoH.
**So am I correct in saying that God's name can't speak?
There seems to be some debate on this topic..
That's been answered, but as you perceived debate I'll reiterate that
{vavma' } is required and {ponglIj} is correct. The god is depicted
as speaking, the name not.
>Qov:
>"Hallowed be thy name" is a wish that something happen, See TKD
4.2.9 appendix.
**Is it? I didn't gloss that from the text.
**I took it as "Your name is hallowed"
That sort of thing is why I recommended using a Greek textual
analysis to be sure you got the meaning. You said you were, so it's
surprising the one you chose didn't make it clear that it was a
request.
<http://www.lords-prayer-words.com/>http://www.lords-prayer-words.com/
calls it a petition, and a prayer that it be so.
>Qov:
>I'm not one to profess expertise on theology, but as I understand
it Stovokor is the in-between place with the ferry, not the reward
place with the god.
As I understand it, Sto-vo-Kor is the afterlife for the honored dead
where they fight with Kahless in the Black Fleet.
The opposite of Gre'thor, where the un-honored dead go.
Ah, so there's no in-between place: the un-honoured just hang around
the river the whole time. Where does QI'tu' come in? For a
translation rather than a cultural rendering, "Paradise" seems a very
good gloss, with Sto-vo-Kor matching Valhalla better.
10 Thy kingdom come.
wo'Daj cher
**Yes, that should be {wo'lIj} unless the kingdom can speak...
And the verb form there means it's also a wish. It would be "Thy
kingdom comes," were it a statement.
Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
tera'Daq chutDaj luloblu'; 'e' rur Suto'vo'qorDaq.
As above. Think of it as short for "let thy will be done" -- a
pretty much perfect translation of -jaj.
I think the order of the phrases needs to be reversed. The idea is
that his law is already perfectly obeyed in heaven and the prayer
petitions that his will be likewise obeyed on Earth. At any rate, a
noun with an N5 can't be the subject of rur.
>Voragh:
> cherjaj wo'lIj
may your empire be established
I know Voragh already pointed out that it needs to be {wo'lIj
cherlu'jaj} to accurately translate the English (and presumably the Greek).
11 Give us this day our daily bread.
DaHvam tIr ngoghDaj junob.
**Typo. Should be {DaHjajvam}
Why not just DaHjaj or jajvam. Is something added by making it "this
today"? Read some commentary on the unusual Greek word that is
translated into English as "daily". You may decide to replace it with
DaHjaj tIr ngogh 'ut.
>Qes 'utlh:
>(And if you're happy to Klingonise "heaven" to Suto'vo'qor, why
tIr ngogh and not something more general, like Soj? I've always
felt that tIr ngogh is clunky and only a description of something a
Klingon's seen on Earth, that it implies Klingons don't have bread
themselves, apart from chabmey.)
**As {tIr ngogh} was revealed well before TalkNow! came out, I'll
continue to believe that it's really a Klingon food until we have
further evidence that it's not.
I do, however, consider most of the TalkNow words to not be Klingon objects.
Do consider though that the meaning of English food words has mutated
through time, so that meat used to refer to food in general (hence
"sweetmeats"), and some of the interpretations I looked at seemed to
think that bread represented not only more than just bread, but more
than just food in terms of our daily survival requirements. I don't
know the Greek for bread, so I don't know what the word is the
original, but it might be. The Greeks had bread. I guess bread was
invented in mesopotamia. I recognize the word for bread in the Latin.
***So I think that leaves us with this:
9 Our Father which art in heaven,
Suto'vo'qorDaq SoHtaH vavma';
Isn't it more an invocation to {Suto'vorqaor Dabbogh vavma'} than
telling him where he is?
Hallowed be thy name.
quvjaj ponglIj.
10 Thy kingdom come.
chenjaj wo'lIj
As above. This sounds like you're asking that his empire establish
something, perhaps his name.
Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
tera'Daq chutlIj luloblu'; 'e' rur Suto'vo'qorDaq.
***Someone mentioned not likeing this line.
Suggestions on fixing it?
As I mentioned, it's more than not liking. You need to get rid of the
N5 suffixes on nouns that interact with the verb. Without spending
any time on it, my first pass would be:
Suto'vo'qor rurchoHjaj tera', chutlIj loblu'mo'.
"May Earth come to resemble Sto-vo-kor, because your law is obeyed."
Some people (lojmIt tI'wI' nuv) would insist that the verbal -mo'
clause precede, the way a noun -mo' clause needs to, but there's no
support for that in TKD, just his stylistic preference, and I think
it flows better following.
Everything I come up with keeps the same awkwardness
11 Give us this day our daily bread.
DaHjajvam tIr ngoghmaj junobneS.
It's definitely an imperative "Give us." The -neS is there to
emphasie that it's a polite request and not a demand, but it's still
an imperative, ghonobneS all the way.
***If we take the rest from an a fore mentioned translation (that I
haven't taken the time to look over as it's 4:22 am) we have:
12 And forgive us our debts,
'ej yemmeymaj tIbIjneSQo';
I'd be tempted to go with {yemmeymajmo' ghobIjneSQo'} - it's not the
sins that are punished.
as we forgive our debtors.
Random ignorant comment: I know there are different versions of the
prayer corresponding to different Christian traditions. I don't know
how strong the affiliations between the versions and the sects are.
If the one that contracted you is strong about wanting the "debts"
version and not the "trespasses" version, maybe yemmey isn't the
direction to go here. If they don't care which version then ignore my babbling.
maHvaD yembogh nuvpu' DIbIjbe'moH.
I'm not quite getting what the -moH does there.
13 And lead us not into temptation,
chotlhu'moHneSQo',
Correct that prefix.
but deliver us from evil:
'ach mIghghachvo' ghotoDneS.
We know better now about how to use -ghach. I don't think it's
unforgivably egregious there, but I was thinking of rendering it as
{X mIgh}, and went to look at what doors the original had left open
for X. Quoting Wikipedia [yeah, yeah, but it's your contract, you
find better sources]:
"The original Greek, as well as the Latin version, could be either of
neuter (evil in general) or masculine (the evil one) gender. [...]
Later parts of Matthew refer to the devil when discussing similar
issues. [...] While <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Calvin>John
Calvin accepted the vagueness of the term's meaning, he considered
that there is little real difference between the two interpretations,
and that therefore the question is of no real consequence."
I'd use that to justify translating evil as mIghwI'.
I'm also looking twice at {mIghvo' ghotoD}. The suffix -vo' is for
motion away from and we have to be careful not to fall into the trap
of using it just because the English uses from. In this case I think
the metaphorical sweeping up of salvation justifies it.
For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever.
reH SoHvaD wo', HoS je, batlh je.
The "For" here is in the sense of "because, but there's no verb to
attach a -mo' to. I'm not sure that that part of the meaning is
vital. The commentaries I looked at doesn't mention it and my latin
isn't good enough to see if that's there. In Klingon that would have
to be {reH SoHvaD taHmo' wo', HoS je, batlh je}. It makes me smile
(in a good way) because if it were "Thine be the kingdom, etc," then
you'd have to use {taHjaj wo'}. And that rocks, doesn't it?
Amen
'amen.
I'm pretty sure Amen means qaSjaj.
- Qov
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