tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Wed Dec 31 10:32:02 2003

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Re: "movie" (was Re: MOST terminology)

David Trimboli ([email protected]) [KLI Member] [Hol po'wI']

From: "Alan Anderson" <[email protected]>

> ja' SuStel:
> >For the record, I have a pretty clear idea of what my boundaries for
/HaSta/
> >are, but I don't have a succinct way to define it.  Give me a situation,
and
> >I'll say yea, nay, or ehhh . . . .
>
> <<vIQIjlaHbe', 'ach vIleghDI' vISov.>>
>
> Explicitly subjective "definitions" like that are why debates like this
> don't work.

jIQoch.  pIj ghu'vam lughom Hol jatlhwI'pu'.  Every natural language has got
bits that its speakers can only explain subjectively.  Maybe someone else
can better define the element, but the subjective native still knows what's
right and wrong, and he can be correct.

Anyway, I'm not debating the RIGHT meaning of /HaSta/.  I'm arguing that the
definition given to us is vague, my interpretation is narrower than yours,
and not any less valid.

> >Or put it another way.  Can YOU define the difference between the image
> >produced by a security camera and the image shown in a film?  If you can
> >define that, I'll be able to use that to try to show you why I find
/HaSta/
> >applicable to the former but not the latter.
>
> Oh, that's easy.  It's like the difference between English and Esperanto.
> A security camera shows "natural" images, so that the viewer sees exactly
> what is going on in reality from the viewpoint of the camera.  A movie
> shows "artificial" images, so that the viewrs see what the movie's
producer
> wants them to see.

Good!  Now keep this difference in mind when thinking of the scene in Star
Trek: The Motion Picture.  The captain says the single word /HaSta/, and the
crew knows what he wants: an image of what's outside the ship.  We know it's
not just ANY display: it contrasts with the /wIy/ he ordered displayed.

Beyond that, it's my opinion, based on a feeling of Marc Okrand was thinking
when he defined the word.  And we just don't have anything beyond opinions.

> >> However, instead of pursuing the matter until one or both of us leaves
in
> >> disgust, I will take my opinion, leave you to yours, and cease the
> >> discussion.
> >
> >Basically, I presume, because you don't want to answer the other
questions
> >I've posed, like whether /HaSta/ can refer to statues, prides of weapons,
> >mime performances, computer graphics, and so on.  And that's okay,
because
> >it proves the point I've been making all along: we don't know for sure,
not
> >even close, and to deny this is pointless.
>
> In fact, I *did* answer them all in rather a lot of detail, but I deleted
> the note because all my answers were based on *my* understanding of the
> English phrase "visual display" in the context where {HaSta} was used in
> Star Trek: The Motion Picture.  The basic idea is that {HaSta} applies to
> something that *could* be recorded by a security camera.  Suspension of
> disbelief does not disqualify an image from fitting the category, in my
> opinion.

It's a good opinion.  I agree that there it has compelling features.

> >P.S.: My opinion on translating a computer OS "window": just use the same
> >metaphor that English uses.  Call it a /Qorwagh/.  It's not a Klingon OS;
> >Klingons don't have any words for it, and it should be understood that
this
> >is my opinion, not the end-all truth of translating (and I don't think
that
> >it is).  While /HaSta/ would, IN MY OPINION, by a misuse of the word (and
> >could be put to better use in describing webcams and the like), any
> >perceived misuse of /Qorwagh/ would be based on an identical misuse of
the
> >English word "window," and is irrelevant.
>
> Hmm.  It looks like your entire opinion is irrelevant -- Nick's use of
> {HaSta} was for the *contents* of a window.  (I could start a meta-tangent
> here by trying to come up with a Klingon word for "strawman argument".)

No, Nick used /HaSta De'/ "visual display data" to translate the term
"graphics."  He used /HaSta vIHmoH/ "move the visual display" to translate
the term "scroll."  He refered to "window" as /jIHHom/ (the monitor itself
was /jIH/), the "desktop" was /wIy/.  Nick was clearly coming up with a new
metaphor for the environment (different from the traditional office desk
metaphor), especially with terms like /De' bIghHa'/ "data prison" for
"folder" and /Qol/ "beam away" for "cut."

SuStel
Stardate 3999.1

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