tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Mon May 05 08:03:10 2008
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Re: latlh
Some of this canon is REALLY ugly, unless it is being misquoted here.
Specifics below.
On May 5, 2008, at 10:10 AM, Steven Boozer wrote:
> SuStel:
>> Since I don't have my books with me, I can't quote the text that has
>> {latlh} modifying a noun, but there is at least once instance of
>> this.
>> {latlh <noun>} "another noun" does appear. Perhaps {<noun> latlh}
>> would
>> mean something like "<noun>'s additional part" or something. Perhaps
>> not. In any case, latlh is not acting like an adjective; it's a
>> noun in
>> the genitive construction.
>
> {latlh} in canon:
>
> latlh Datlhutlh'a'
> Will you drink another one? CK
Fine.
> reH latlh qabDaq qul tuj law' Hoch tuj puS
> The fire is always hotter on someone else's face. PK
Perfect.
> latlh HIvje'Daq 'Iw HIq bIr yIqang!
> Pour the cold bloodwine into another glass! (idiom) KGT
This is where it gets odd. Is the reference to an additional glass, or
the glass belonging to another person?
> latlh HIvje'Daq 'Iw HIq bIr vIqang!
> I pour the cold bloodwine into another glass! KGT
Ditto.
> latlh?
> And the others? ["The rest?"] ST5
qay'be'.
> Heghtay lulop latlh tlhInganpu'. Heghtay luloptaHvIS chaH chaq bey
> SeQ lujach
> other Klingons may perform a ceremonial howl or yell as part of the
> Klingon
> death ritual. S31
This is where it is clearly being used as what is being called a
quantity word, like {Hoch}, {'op} and {HochHom}, though we don't
exactly have a part of speech described to us well to which these
words belong. They are closest to numbers, which can be used as nouns,
or can be used in front of nouns to modify them, but can {latlh} be
interpreted as a number?
> beyHom bey bey'a' jachtaH latlh tlhInganpu'
> others [i.e. Klingons] roar in a great crescendo. S31
This English translation is particularly interesting, since it favors
the {latlh}-as-noun interpretation. With brackets, he seems to make a
point of avoiding the easier translation of using {latlh} to modify
{tlhInganpu'} by suggesting a kind of apposition. Add that
{tlhInganpu'} is explicitly plural, but {latlh} is not. If it is
apposition, that would have been clearer if they both were plural or
not. Is that closer to what all of the odd translations are really
doing? Apposition?
> Heghpu'bogh latlhpu' ghuHmoH bey. ghoS tlhIngan SuvwI' maq.
> This yell ... serves to warn the other dead that a Klingon warrior is
> coming. S31
Here {latlh} gets the "language user" suffix, clearly treating it as a
noun. Would we ever use {'oppu'} or {HochHompu'}? That's why I
consider {latlh} to be in a different class from these other words. It
is a noun, easily comfortable in noun roles: singular, plural,
language user or body part. These other words act less like nouns than
like numbers, possibly standing in for a noun, but not really acting
like one, especially in terms of suffixes. I think {latlh} could take
most if not all of the noun suffixes that don't fit these other words
well at all. It's not grammatically similar enough to them to be
treated just like them.
Think about it.
Suv cha' SuvwI'pu'. Suv cha'. Suv lattlh. Suv lattlhpu'. Suv 'op'.
*Suv 'oppu'?*
Yuck.
> tera' poH jaj wa', jar wa', jaj loSDIch, DIS wa'-Hut-Hut-chorgh:
> HovpoHvetlh latlh nab yIHutlh
> Save this Stardate: Sunday, January 4, 1998. STX
"That Stardate, lack another plan!" becomes "Save this Stardate!" This
is what I've been calling adjectival use of {latlh}, since {latlh nab}
is "another plan". It is clearly not "plan of another" or "another's
plan". The "another" and the plan are one. Apposition? Number?
I'm not suggesting that it is being used as a Klingon adjective. I'm
suggesting that it is being used as an English one.
> yIntaH qIrq 'e' vIneH. DaSwIj bIngDaq latlhpu' vItap.
> Kirk I want alive. The rest I will grind beneath my boot.
> ("I want that Kirk keeps living. I will mash the others under my
> boot.")
> (STConst p.232)
Again, he uses it as a straight-up noun, complete with plural suffix
inappropriate for any of the words it is being compared to.
> --
> Voragh
> Ca'Non Master of the Klingons
Doq