tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Mon May 05 06:54:36 2008

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RE: latlh

David Trimboli ([email protected]) [KLI Member] [Hol po'wI']

I believe there was some argument going on regarding this stuff, and I
missed it because I filter out those ubiquitous Words of the Day
messages.

I don't have the ol' books with me right now, but Okrand *does* fully
explain the use of {Hoch} as "each, all" in a HolQeD article, as a
quantifier in front of a noun. The use of {HochHom} is unattested, but
seems reasonable considering the word. I believe Okrand also explains
the use of {'op} in the article that introduces it.

{HochHom} appears once on a Skybox card *after* a noun, and here it
(vatlh DIS poH cha'maH wejDIch HochHom) is translated to mean "most of
the 23rd century." If this text is translated accurately, it would
appear that {HochHom} following a noun means "most of <noun>." One
supposes, but has no evidence, that {Hoch} and {'op} can also follow
nouns with the same meaning: "all of <noun>" and "some of <noun>." These
translations aren't all that surprising, since the by-the-book
translation of, say, {chab Hoch} would be "the pie's entirety," and the
translation of {chab 'op} would be "the pie's some of."

Since I don't have my books with me, I can't quote the text that has
{latlh} modifying a noun, but there is at least once instance of this.
{latlh <noun>} "another noun" does appear. Perhaps {<noun> latlh} would
mean something like "<noun>'s additional part" or something. Perhaps
not. In any case, latlh is not acting like an adjective; it's a noun in
the genitive construction.

So we have, through canon or extrapolation:

Hoch chab        each pie
Hoch chabmey     all pies
chab Hoch        all of the pie ("the pie's everything")
HochHom chab     most of the pies
chab HochHom     most of the pie ("the pie's almost everything")
'op chab         some pies
chab 'op         some of a pie ("the pie's portion")
latlh chab       another pie
chab latlh       the pie's additional part
bID chab         half a pie
chab bID         the pie's half (seems the same as the previous)

Are all of these definitely correct? No. But they do more or less follow
the rules as we understand them.

SuStel
Stardate 8343.8


-------- Original Message --------
Subject: latlh
From: Doq <[email protected]>
Date: Mon, May 05, 2008 8:45 am
To: [email protected]

I would appreciate it if someone could, in a post less than one screen 
full of text, explain to me how using {latlh} as an adjective makes 
sense, given the Klingon grammar we've been offered by Okrand. I don't 
think it works as a quantity word, like {Hoch}, {HochHom} or {'op}, 
since it isn't really that kind of word, and for that matter, Okrand 
never explained to us adequately why THOSE words precede what they 
modify. He just did it that way, reversing the genitive word order in 
what seems like a genitive relationship, given phrases like "All of 
us", which, according to TKD should be {maH Hoch}, but is, according 
to canon {Hoch maH}.

I honestly think Okrand just did this without thinking, mimicking 
English, and now, we're stuck with it. The least he could do is offer 
us an explicit explanation of this rather vague area of Klingon 
grammar. He broke it. He should fix it.

Doq

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