tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Tue Oct 23 08:07:56 2007
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Re: *'Iytlher paq
naHQun:
> >> ghotpu' HochHom matlhghach je' *'aqIS puqloDpu'.
> >>
> >>11 Now the people of Akish were desirous for gain, even as Akish was
> >> desirous for power; wherefore, the sons of Akish did offer them money,
> >> by which means they drew away the more part of the people after them.
Voragh:
> > "loyalty"?
> >
> > Insert a suffix after the verb. {-taH} will do: *{matlhtaHghach}. Fierce
> > loyalty or devotion bordering on fanaticism might be *{matlhqu'ghach}.
naHQun:
>Being that it's not "true loyalty" (it's being bought), I thought I'd
>make it "highly marked".
Careful, the marking may not mean what you want it to. Here, it would
sound something like "loyalness", "loyalbility", or "loyalation" instead of
the correct form "loyalty". It will cause the "native" reader to pause on
that word to try to figure out this peculiar form. Also, I don't see any
particular "marking" in the original text; why are you doing it in
Klingon? Translator's should translate the text as it is, so far as
possible, without inserting their personal interpretation in the
process. If you want to explain that the text implies "that it's not 'true
loyalty' (it's being bought)", then do so in a footnote.
That being said, if you prefer to put it in terms of honor rather than
loyalty, consider the noun {DavHam} "false honor":
Maltz mentioned one noun associated with these verbs, {DavHam}, which
he defined simply as "false honor", but which really covers the same
semantic ground as both {HoQ} and {Qaq} (but not really {mIl}). {DavHam}
is different from {quvHa'ghach} "dishonor" (noun) in that the latter
does not imply seeming to be honorable or the appearance of honorability,
but rather the lack of or loss of honor. [HQ 12.3:9]
{HoQ} "be honored falsely, be falsely honorable", {Qaq} "behave falsely
honorably, behave in a falsely honorable manner", {mIl} "be formerly
honored" - all verbs from that same article in HolQeD.
naHQun:
>I don't think anyone can use {-ghach} without suggestions coming up,
>and a prefix is a simple thing to take care of. I didn't realize I was
>getting this good. We'll have to see if any other comments come in.
For those interested, here's the relevant part from the article "Interview:
Okrand on {ghach}" in HolQeD 3.3:10:
Z: So, can we use the suffix {ghach} on a naked stem?
MO: The general answer to that is "no." Now having said that, can you do
it? Can you say {belghach} or {nobghach} or anything like that? Yeah you
can, but it has a feeling in Klingon kind of like the English word
*pleasureness or something or something like *collapsation it follows the
rules, it's a tion, an activity and all, but it doesn't happen to work.
However, if you said it would you be understood? Yes, but it's weird.
Klingon is a little more forgiving than English, people wouldn't jump up
and down and say that's horrible and ungrammatical, but they would say
that's a unique formation. Perhaps appropriate for the occasion, but not
necessarily a word for all times.
Z: So, if we use {-ghach} on a bare stem...
MO: It's a highly marked form. It's a word you are forming for a specific
occasion and a specific effect. If you were a poet or philosopher or hard
scientist and had to describe something very specifically these kinds of
words might be appropriate but it carries the feeling of very technical
arcane vocabulary, not normal everyday stuff. So can you say it? Yes, but
you are saying more, rather than less or neutral.
Z: And you are drawing a great deal of attention to it in the process.
MO: Right, I suppose over time some of these things could be lexicalized,
but my hunch would be if they are lexicalized they would drop stuff. And
there may even be some kind of morphological change what used to be the
last consonant of the stem will change to the {ch} of {-ghach} or something
like that. There are limited examples of that type of stuff happening in
the dictionary, though not with the {ghach}.
Z: Okay, if you can add {-ghach} to a bare stem, what happens if you add it
to one of those verbs that already has a noun counterpart? Like {nob}?
MO: You won't necessarily end up with a noun that means the same thing.
Remember, there is no single semantic or case relationship between a noun
and a verb, there are different ones, probably half a dozen different
relationships going on, and the {-ghach} one will only be one of those, and
it will be a different kind, not the same thing at all. So if you add
{ghach} to {nob} you end up with *givation. If what you mean to express is
an ongoing giving, {nobtaHghach}, stick in the {taH}.
Z: Well, if {nobtaHghach} means something like ongoing giving, would
{nobghach} mean a one-time donation?
MO: Yes, but it's a funny word for that. It could also be {nobpu'ghach}, a
*given. Not a past event necessarily, just finished. Now if you use
{-ghach}, and Klingons do this, they play with their language like everyone
does, you can get some interesting semantic distinctions you can't get
otherwise. For example, you have two nouns that mean honor-like you would
expect because it's such a big deal. There's {batlh} and there's {quv} and
both are nouns meaning "honor". And there's a verb meaning "honor"
{quvmoH}, that's a regular ordinary construction. So you can have
{quvmoHghach} which is a noun that would mean the process of honoring.
{quvghach}, the naked stem one, that would mean *honoredness. It has the
same odd feeling to it, but the same understandability, but not quite as
bizarre in Klingon as in English. It's a highlighter.
naHQun:
>Wait, that's it? I left off {lu-} and suggestions with {-ghach}?
Actually, those are the only bits I had time to look at since you mentioned
{-ghach} particularly.
--
Voragh
Ca'Non Master of the Klingons