tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Sat Aug 21 10:38:28 2004

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{Qub} {Har} {Sov} {tu'}

ngabwI' ([email protected]) [KLI Member] [Hol po'wI']

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Philip Newton" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, August 21, 2004 11:56 AM
Subject: Re: {qon} vs {gher}

> {Qub} and {Har} for "have the opinion that" both feel _malglico_ to me
> (to use a Lojban expression; roughly, it means "influenced by English"
> with a derogatory overtone).

Oddly enough, I had the same opinion of {Qub}, but never {Har}.

> I'd aline {Qub} with Lojban {pensi} - to
> think/consider/cogitate/ruminate about, to engage in though process.

wa' DoS wIqIpchu'

> And {Har} with {krici} - to believe a certain thing despite having no
> proof; to hold that X is true. But I'm missing a translation for
> {jinvi} - to have an opinion; to opine that X is true.

And I see {Har} as covering both.

> English uses both "I think that X is true" and "I believe that X is
> true" for this; German also uses "I find that X is true" for
> expressing opinions.

And, incidentally, Klingon also uses {tu'} for the "I find that X is true":

{De' pegh vIghaj. lI' 'e' Datu'.} "I have secret information. You will find
it useful." (PK, during the dinner scene, toward the end of the recording.)

If not for this canon backing, I would have balked at this usage.

> Knowing that {Qub} is Officially Acceptable would help; I'd also be
> interested in the status of {Har}.

{Qub} was okayed by Okrand on the old msn messageboard. {'e' vIQub} }}; )

Come to think of it, I'd like to know the status of {Har}, too. Do we have
info that says you can say:
{lI'be' yIHmey 'e' vIHar} "I believe tribbles are useless, it is my opinion
that tribbles are useless" Or is that my herd mentality saying it's OK?

(I know, I know, {lI'be'law' yIHmey} seems a little more "Klingon")

> However, I imagine the key is in two points you made: (a) follow your
> instincts and say what feels right, and its corollary (b) don't say
> what feels wrong even if there's official backing or popular usage.

I think I might disagree with you on one minor point:
If there is official backing for a usage or construct, I see absolutely no
reason to avoid it. Naturally, don't say it if you don't want to, but if
we've been given a way to express a particular idea, and you can think of no
other simple way to say it, why not use it?

Ex: {bochmoHwI'} If you don't feel comfortable using the word, fine, but
when you want to say "brown-noser", there's absolutely no reason to recast.
Just say {bochmoHwI'}.

> (Another point is with {Sov}, I suppose, which doesn't distinguish
> what German has as "wissen" vs "kennen", or French "savoir" vs
> "conna=EEtre" - basically "know something (have knowledge)" and "be
> familiar with (this is often the sense used when you say you know
> someone)".

I know the difference you're speaking of, and I'm afraid I haven't an
answer.

I also initially had a problem with {be'nalwI' DaSov'a'?} "Do you know my
wife?", using the "kennen" sense of "know".
Once again, I overcame that. I'm now comfortable with {Sov} in the "wissen"
and "kennen" senses.

But, out of sheer morbid curiousity, I'd like to see the canon.

Voragh, could you please, pretty please, show us what you know about {Qub},
{Har}, and {Sov}? Also, any other examples of {tu'} in the sense of "find it
useful"?

--ngabwI'
Beginners' Grammarian
Klingon Language Institute
http://kli.org
HovpoH 701943.9

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