tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Wed Jun 12 15:47:32 2002

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Re: KLBC: Phrase

> > wa'DIch manID, ngugh mavoq.
> > "First we try, then we trust."

>   manIDDI' mIw wa'DIch wIta', ngugh mavoq.
>But because of ngugh, do we need to explain that nID is first?
>   manID, ngugh mavoq.

Nope.  The shorter version is much better, although you both used the wrong 
"then".  {ngugh} means "then, at that time".  Okrand explained it on 
startrek.klingon (11/05/1999):

   There is an adverbial which means "then" in the sense of "at that time"
   (as opposed to "subsequently"). And there is also an idiom meaning
   something like "by that time." The adverbial is {ngugh}. It is used
   mainly to emphasize that a particular event occurred at the same time
   as something else, though {ngugh} doesn't indicate what that time is.
   Something else in the discussion makes that clear. ngugh does not mean
   "at some (vague) time in the past" or "at some (unknown) time in the

Okrand's examples were:

   vagh SanID ben buDbe' wamwI'pu'. ngugh Ho'Du'chaj lo' chaH, 'ach DaH
    tajmey lo'.
   5,000 years ago, hunters were not lazy. Then (at that time) they used
    their teeth, but now they use knives.

   DungluQ tIHIv. ngugh Qongbe' chaH
    Attack them at noon! They won't be sleeping then.
    Attack them at noon. They're not sleeping then.

What we need here is {ghIq} "and then, after that, by then, 
subsequently".  Okrand discussed this adverbial in HolQeD 8.3:

   The adverbial {ghIq} means 'then' in the sense of 'and then, after that,
   by then, subsequently' and the like. It is used as in the following 
      Soppu'. ghIq tlhutlhpu'.
       He/she ate. Then (after that) he/she drank.
      wam chaH. ghIq Soj luvut.
       They hunt. Then (after that) they prepare food.
      wa'leS maghob. ghIq malop.
       Tomorrow we will do battle. Then (after that) we'll celebrate.
   It is possible to join the sentences with a conjunction such as {'ej} and or
   {'ach} but:
      wam chaH 'ej ghIq Soj luvut.
       They hunt and then they prepare food.
      tlhoy Sop 'ach ghIq Qongchu'.
       He/she eats too much, but then he/she sleeps soundly.

You don't need to reproduce every single word from your source text in your 
translation.  As you both discovered, English "then" is more ambiguous than 
Klingon {ghIq} as it also includes ideas expressed by Klingon {ngugh} and 
{vaj}, which is why it's often reinforced by adding "first" or "firstly" 
(i.e. "first X, then Y").  There's no need for this in Klingon.

Ca'Non Master of the Klingons

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