tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Mon Jul 29 07:52:11 1996
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Re: -neS and batlh
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>Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 14:08:34 -0700
>From: Thomas Zeman <[email protected]>
>I was hoping that one of the Grammarians could explain if there is a
>consensus on the proper use of the Type 8 Verbal Suffix "-neS" and the
>adverbial "batlh".
I'll see what I can do. I'm feeling consensual.
>I seem to remember during the workshop on verbal suffixes at the
>qep'a', that it was stated that "-neS" is best interpreted as an
>honorific such as in:
>"You are a complete knothead, SIR." or
>"One bimbo or two, MR. PRESIDENT?" or
>"I won't pay this speeding ticket, YOUR HONOR."
Heh. I like these. I'd say it's actually pretty close to -neS's meaning,
though a Klingon would never use it this way... because the person
addressed would never fall for it. -neS indicates that the speaker is
honoring the person addressed, regardless of what's said or who the subject
or object of the sentence is.
>Yet, TKD page 43, uses two examples. The first is the ubiquitous <
>qaleghneS >, which is translated as "I am honored to see you." The next
>is < HIja'neS >, which is translated as "Do me the honor of telling me."
>Using the first method, wouldn't < qaleghneS > be "I see you, YOUR
>HONOR."? I seem to remember Okrand using both methods on one of the
>audio tapes, but what is the correct interpretation?
You're letting yourself get bogged down in words and not meanings. (These
are the trees. That's the forest). -neS means, as I said, that the
speaker is showing respect to the addressee, in addition to whatever else
is being said. We can express that feeling in English as well, in more
than one way (indeed, most languages have more than one way to do things,
and particularly something like this). We can say "I see you, your honor";
that's a very direct way to say (a) I'm seeing you and (b) I'm honoring
you. But "I am honored to see you" is only a slightly less direct way to
say the same thing, for the most part (I suppose it could be read as saying
something slightly different, see below, but in practice it boils down to
about the same thing). It's a little circumlocution for (a) I see you and
(b) I am honoring you, only I'm doing it by paying you ao compliment saying
that just seeing you is an honor. In both sentences you're saying pretty
much the same thing. Okrand just chose a more natural English idiom (I am
honored to see you) to make the translation smoother. Remember that most
of his translations are not literal. Indeed, few translations of anything
by anyone are.
>This brings me to the adverbial "batlh". At the end of one of the
>tapes Okrand says, < batlh qaghojmoH >. This is translated as, "It has
>been an honor to instruct you." Page 56 of TKD defines "batlh" as
>meaning "with honor, in an honored fashion." Doesn't this mean that <
>batlh qaghojmoH > could just as easily be translated as, "I teach you
>WITH HONOR." This changes the meaning of the sentence completely.
You're right, it does. Not a whole lot, but noticeably. Again, part of it
is the English idiom "it has been an honor to," which can be read in more
than one way. It would seem to me that "-neS" would be closer to the
meaning of it, but perhaps he felt that "batlh" would be more powerful and
better in the Klingon (or conversely that "I teach you with honor" wouldn't
sound right in English).
>Is there any agreement on how these should correctly be used (or am
>I completely on the wrong track here)?
Well, that's my take; it may be reading a little more into Okrand than he
intended, but I doubt it. -neS really seems to be a pretty straightforward
honorific, while "batlh" is an adverbial.
~mark
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