tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Wed Apr 30 09:02:25 2008
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Re: Klingon WOTD: ngIp (verb)
jatlhDI' nuv Qagh nuvvam. qay'be'. qeqmeH naDev majatlhchuq. qay'be'.
rut Qagh Hoch. qay'be'.
QaghDI' nuv latlh lughmoHtaHvIS nuvvam, qay'choH.
latlhpu' DalughmoH DaneHchugh, yIyep. bIlughbe'chugh latlhpu'
DalughmoHlaHbe'ba'. HaDmeH chovnatlh moj mu'tlheghmeylIj DaneHchugh,
lughnISbej mu'tlheghlIj.
qalughmoHbe'. qayaj 'e' vInID neH, 'ej jIloynISDI', DIvI' Hol
vIlo'taHvIS, mu'tlheghHey vIloypu'bogh vI'ang.
maSuvnISbe'. maghoHnISbe'. bIQaghmo' bItlhIjnISbe'.
'ach chotIchnISbe' je. chaq yap SovwIj. chaq yapbe'. bIQaghmo' SovwIj
DanoHlaHbe'law'.
English: "excuse" (noun). tlhIngan: {?}.
mu'vetlh Hutlh tlhIngan Hol. ghaytan rammo' Hutlh.
chovuvchugh, qavuv, 'ej qay'be'.
On Apr 29, 2008, at 7:57 PM, Sangqar wrote:
> Doq wrote:
>> QInlIj vIyaj 'e' vInID, 'ach loQ vIyajlaHbe'. vaj, HochvaD mu'meylIj
>> vImugh (ghaytan vImughHa').
>
> qaStaHvIS poH nI' tlhIngan Hol vIlo'be'. jISaw; bogh puqloDwI'; qaS
> latlh Doch je. DaH jIlo'qa'. jIqeqnIS. jIghojqa'nIS. rut jIQagh. vaj
> loQ
> pIch vIghaj.
>
> 'ach yapbe' SovlIj, 'ej loQ pIch Daghaj SoH je.
>
>>> tlhoy mu'mey'e' bIpup. 'ach bIpupqu'chugh:
>>
>> "As for words, you kick too much. But if you kick a lot:" ????
>
> yapbe' SovlIj: pup = "be exact" (pup = "kick", pup = "be perfect" je)
"As for words, you are too perfect/exact/high resolution."??? "But if
you are very perfect/exact/high resolution:" ???
DIvI' Hol mu' "picky" DaneHlaw'. Qu'vam toy'be' mu' <<pup>> . Qatlh
mu'tlhegh DaneHbogh. qay' vIjatlhlaH? jIQubnIS...
jIpupbe' 'e' vISov, vaj qayajHa'pu'.
mu'tlheghlIj qa'meH vIchenmoH 'e' vInID:
<<mu'mey'e' Sun 'Iq DapoQpu'. yIleS. mu' rap lo'laH Hol pIm. qay'be'.
SaHbe'lu'.>>
jIQapta''a'?
> nIHbe' ghot, latlh ghot ghajbe'choH. 'ach mu' ngIpchugh Hol, mu'vetlh
>>
>>> ghajtaH latlh Hol. vaj mu' nIHghach 'oHbe' mu' ngIpghach.
>>
>> "A person does not steal, he/she/it begins to not have another's
>> person. [?] But if a language borrows a word, another's language
>> continues to have that word. Thus, a word's borrowation [with a
>> missing {-'e'}] is not a word's stealation."
>
> jIQaghqu': "niHbe' => "niHchugh".
>
> jIQaghqu': "latlh ghot ghajbe'choH" => "ghajbe'choH latlh ghot".
>
> yapbe' SovlIj: latlh Hol = "another language" (latlh Hol = "another's
> language" je).
I need to speak English to be clear about this. {latlh} is a noun. It
is not an adjective. In English, "another" is an adjective or a noun.
In Klingon, {latlh} is never an adjective. It is always right to
translate {latlh} as a noun. It may sound strange at times to do so,
but the meaning of it stated as a noun is always correct because,
well, that's what it is.
In English, we say "Klingon language". In Klingon, a back-translation
of {tlhIngan Hol} is "A Klingon's language". While it may be okay to
loosely translate it as "Klingon language" in order to smooth it out
for English speakers, {tlhIngan} is never an adjective in Klingon as
it is in English. {latlh} and {tlhIngan} are very similar in this
regard.
You can suggest that {latlh Hol} be "loosely translated" as "another
language", but it is useful for beginners (or experienced speakers who
have forgotten this) to know that it NEVER literally means "another
language" because {latlh} is NEVER an adjective.
Think about the difference between {nov Hol} and {Hol nov}. One is the
language of a foreigner. The other is a foreign language. The
difference in the word order is something that neither {tlhIngan} nor
{latlh} can accomplish because they are not verbs, and so they cannot
be used as adjectives.
So, if I translate {latlh Hol} as "another's language", I'm right. You
can suggest a loose translation of it as "another language", but you
won't be right unless you explain that it is an intentionally
inaccurate, loose translation. Otherwise, people start thinking of
{latlh} as if it were an adjective that precedes the noun it modifies,
and Klingon has no such grammatical construction, and no such part of
speech.
All that said, you probably would have been better served with {nov}
or {pIm}, since {latlh} could easily be another Klingon, and the
language might not be different from a Klingon's language at all.
> jIQagh: <-'e'> vIlIj. (pagh chaq "Morska"ngan jIH.)
>
> wej bIyajchugh, HISovmoH.
>
>> QoQ ta nIHwI' Darur.
>
> jIyajbe'. mu'tlhegh vIyaj. "You resemble a thief of recorded music
> (lit.
> music record)". 'ach qech vIyajbe'. qatlh Dochvam vIrur 'e' DaQub?
QoQ qon muchwI'. tavam ngev. Huchvammo' latlh qonlaH muchwI'.
SoplaHtaH. yInlaHtaH. <<pem ghIgh>> poQbe'.
tavam qon nIHwI'. je'be'. tlhap neH. 'ach not nIH 'e' qap.
<<(vIqonmeH) wa'logh tavetlh vIlo' neH . tavetlh vIghajbe' (taqoqwIj
vIlo'qa'mo'), vaj vIje'nISbe'!>>
wejpuH. batlhHa' ngorta'.
> tlhIngan Hol lo'lu'taHvIS ngIplaH'a' Hol? wISovbe'. nIHlaH'a' Hol?
>>
>>> wISovbe'.
>>
>> Can a language borrow while one uses a Klingon's language? We don't
>> know it. Can a language steal? We don't know it.
>
> bIyajbe'chugh, pIch Daghajbe'. rut tlhIngan Hol wIjatlhtaHvIS, mu'
> DIreyniS. vaj jiQIj:
>
> While one uses Klingon, can a language borrow? = Can we use the
> expression "a language borrows" in Klingon?
qaq mIw pIm.
mu'mey nov lo'laH tlhIngan Hol?
>>> (ghu'vam'e' lugh <nIHghach>, <ngIpghach> je):
>>
>> "As for this situation, stealation and borrowation are correct." [?]
>
> motlh mojaQ <-ghach> lo'laHDI' vay', latlh mojaQ je poQ mu'. 'ach rut
> pagh latlh mojaQ poQ mu'. (pIjHa' qaS qhu' Seghvetlh.) ghu' Seghvetlh
> 'oH ghu'vam'e' 'e' vIHar.
jar maHar.
> HQ: So, <can> we use the suffix *-ghach* on a naked stem?
>>
>>>
>>> MO: ...Klingon is a little more forgiving than English, people
>>> wouldn't
>>> jump up and down and say that's horrible and ungrammatical, but they
>>> would say that's a unique formation. Perhaps appropriate for the
>>> occasion, but not necessarily a word for all times.
>>>
>>> from HolQeD 3:3
>>
>> moH.
>
> moH tlhIngan Hol pab 'e' DaHarlaH, 'ach SoH jIHchugh, QoylaHtaHvIS
> tlhIngan, ghaHvaD vIja'be'.
jIH SoHbe'ba'.
Doq