tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Tue Nov 21 10:07:50 2006
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Re: Dilbert Comic in Klingon for November 1
>Voragh:
> > Okrand on {tlhob}:
> > What I wanted to do with {tlhob} and {ghel} is to distinguish
> > between two different meanings for the English verb "ask".
> > There are two ask's. There's the "ask" where you ask a question
> > and there's "ask" where you make a request. I wanted it to be
> > two different verbs, though apparently there are times when the
> > "request" verb is used to ask a question as well. So maybe the
> > way it works is that {ghel} can ask a question and only as a
> > question and the other one can mean that and is also used to
> > request or plead or something like that. (HolQeD 7:4)
pm5:
>I understand now. BTW is this parallel to the two verbs {ja'} "say"
>and {jatlh} "say, speak", in that {ja'} means to say or tell something
>and only that, whereas {jatlh} can mean the same thing and can
>also mean to speak a language?
Here's a rather lengthy post by Okrand on verbs of saying which bears study:
From: "Marc Okrand"
Newsgroups: msn.onstage.startrek.expert.okrand
Date: 29 Jun 1997
Subject: Re: Some quick questions...
Neal Schermerhorn wrote:
> 1) Does qajatlh mean anything? Some feel this is poor grammar. I'm not
> sure what to think. Can jatlh take an object other than a language?
The object of {jatlh} "speak" is that which is spoken. Thus, it's OK to say
"speak a language," for example:
{tlhIngan Hol Dajatlh} "you speak Klingon"
But it's also OK to say "speak an address, speak a lecture," for example:
{SoQ Dajatlh} "you speak an address" or, more colloquially, "you
deliver an address" or "you make a speech"
To say simply:
{jatlh} "he/she speaks"
implies "he/she speaks it," where "it" is a language or a lecture or
whatever.
The indirect object of {jatlh}, when expressed, is the hearer/listener.
Thus:
{qama'pu'vaD tlhIngan Hol Dajatlh} "you speak Klingon to the prisoners"
{qama'pu'vaD SoQ Dajatlh} "you make a speech to the prisoners"
When the indirect object (in this case, the hearer) is first or second
person, the pronominal prefix which normally indicates first or second
person object may be used. There are other examples of this sort of thing
with other verbs. For example, someone undergoing the Rite of Ascension
says:
{tIqwIj Sa'angnIS} "I must show you [plural] my heart"
The pronominal prefix in this phrase is {Sa-}, which means "I [do something
to] all of you" in such sentences as:
{Salegh} "I see you [plural]"
but when there's already an object (in this case, {tIqwIj} "my heart"), the
"object" of the prefix is interpreted as the indirect object, so {Sa-} means
"I [do something to] it for you" or the like.
This, then, brings us back to your question. Since the object of {jatlh} is
that which is spoken, and since "you" or "I" or "we" cannot be spoken (and
therefore cannot be the object of the verb), if the verb is used with a
pronominal prefix indicating a first- or second-person object, that first
or second person is the indirect object.
Which is a not very elegant way of saying that {qajatlh} means "I speak
to you" or, more literally, perhaps "I speak it to you," where "it" is a
language or a speech or whatever:
{qajatlh} "I speak to you"
{Sajatlh} "I speak to you [plural]"
{chojatlh} "you speak to me"
{tlhIngan Hol qajatlh} "I speak Klingon to you"
There's another wrinkle to this. The verb {jatlh} can also be used when
giving direct quotations:
{tlhIngan jIH jatlh} "he/she says, 'I am a Klingon'"
{jatlh tlhIngan jIH} "he/she says, 'I am a Klingon'"
(With verbs of saying, such as {jatlh}, the phrase that is being said or
cited may come before or after the verb.)
If the speaker is first or second person, the pronominal prefix indicating
"no object" is used:
{tlhIngan jIH jIjatlh} "I say, 'I am a Klingon'"
{tlhIngan jIH bIjatlh} "you say, 'I am a Klingon'"
There are instances where the pronominal prefix marks a big distinction in
meaning:
{tlhIngan Hol Dajatlh} "you speak Klingon"
{tlhIngan Hol bIjatlh} "you say, 'Klingon language'"
[that is "you say the phrase 'Klingon language'"]
I realize that this answer to your "quick" question is probably too quick
itself. It is not by any means a complete discussion of the several topics
mentioned and I may have phrased things not as clearly as they might be
phrased. As a result, this answer may end up just raising other questions.
{qay'be'}. We'll get to them as they come along.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
And here's a bit of a later interview with Marc Okrand(HQ 12/1998):
WM: "And a typical direct object of {ja'} would be the person
addressed and a typical object of the verb {jatlh} would
be the thing you say."
MO: "The speech event."
The direct object of {ja'} in our examples is the person addressed:
qaja'pu' HIqaghQo'
HIqaghQo' qaja'pu'
I told you not to interrupt me.
I told you, 'Don't interrupt me!'
'Don't interrupt me!' I told you.' TKD
yIja'Qo'
Don't tell him! TKD
yIja''egh
Tell yourself! TKD
peja''egh
Tell yourselves! TKD
qaja'
I tell you. TKD
qaja'pu'
I told you. TKD
qaja'qang
I am willing to tell you. TKD
nuja'rup
They are prepared to tell us. TKD
HIja'neS
Do me the honor of telling me. TKD
choja'chugh
if you tell me. TKD
choja'pa'
before you tell me. TKD
choja'Qo'chugh
if you won't tell me (if you refuse to tell me). TKD
nuja' tlhIngan wIch ja'wI'pu'
According to Klingon legend... S8
Finally, here's another relevant interview of Okrand by Will Martin from
HolQeD (Dec 1998):
MO: ... Verbs of speech are "say" verbs, like {jatlh} and {ja'}.
WM: In English, we use many of them.
MO: Yes. In English, we say, "Give me some water," he said. "Give me
some water," he pleaded. "Give me some water," he yelled.
WM: He added. He begged. He opined.
MO: Exactly. I think that's an English thing to do. That's not a Klingon
thing to do. In Klingon, you {jatlh} and you {ja'}. That's about
it. The
guard asked the prisoner a question. He replied. He said, "[gestures a
quotation he never quite made]"
[After the interview, I made the following three lines of examples to show
how this worked:
qama' yu''avwI'. jatlh Qu'lIj DarIn'a'?
'avwI' jang qama'. jatlh tugh. vIrInmeH taj vlpoQ.
mon 'avwI'. jatlh chotojmeH bInIDchu'ta'.
Dr. Okrand modified one sentence and said he accepted them as valid but
wanted it noted that they were my sentences and not his, in his words, "a
suggestion by you, okayed by me." - WM]
WM: So, basically, in Klingon, you would just use {jatlh} a lot. If someone
is asking a question, would you state the question and say {jatlh}?
MO: If it's a direct quotation, I would. Yes.
(clip)
MO: The way I see I see the verbs of speech, there may be more than just
{ja'} and {jatlh}, but there is only a small number of words, unlike
English. You have to use a separate sentence for the replying,
pleading, screaming. "He screamed. He said,'Come help me.'"
WM: Since a direct quotation grammatically looks like two separate
sentences, you are saying that it would now look like three separate
sentences at that point. You'd have one describing what style of
verbalization he was having, one saying "he said" and one giving
the quotation.
MO: Yes.
WM: Very interesting.
(clip)
WM: Just to mention particular verbs in terms of whether they can be
used for speech or not, you are saying that {ghel} is a word that
would probably not be used typically as a verb of speech. That even
if you are asking a question you would still tend to use {ja'} or
{jatlh}.
MO: Yes. "He asked me. He said,'blah, blah, blah.'" Or "He said,'blah,
blah, blah.' He asked me." It doesn't matter.
WM: {jang} - "answer" would be similar?
MO: Yes.
WM: And {tlhob} would similarly be...
MO: {tlhob} also has the non-quoting sense.
WM: Things you would unlikely use for speech are {bach}, {chel} ...
MO: {bach} is slang. The rules might be a little bit different. For non-
slang...
WM: {chup} "suggest." {jach} "cry out." {SIv} "wonder."
MO: I've got to figure out what to do about "wonder." That summer, the
more I thought about it the more confused I got.
WM: Are there any other verbs of speech that you would care to
comment on?
MO: Are there any other verbs of speech?
WM: And a typical direct object of {ja'} would be the person addressed
and a typical object of the verb {jatlh} would be the thing you say.
MO: The speech event.
WM: I like that term.
MO: Including a direct quote. I'm telling a story. He "blah, blah, blah"
{jatlh}.
> > So the answer to your question is that both versions can be correct
> > depending on what you want to say:
> >
> > DaQaH 'e' lutlhob.
> > They ask that you help them. They ask you to help them.
> >
> > <<DaQaH>> tlhob.
> > "Help them," they requested. They ask, "Help them."
> >
> > As always, the right punctuation can be helpful.
>
>But if using quotations isn't it "help us" that they should have said?
>
> {<juQaH> tlhob.} "Help us," they/it requested".
Good catch, however {juQaH} is the statement "you help us". The actual
quote would probably have been in the imperative: {ghoQaH} "Help us!" If
they were speaking about helping some other group, then it would be {tIQaH}
"Help them!"
--
Voragh
Ca'Non Master of the Klingons