tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Thu Nov 16 08:14:39 2006
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Re: Dilbert Comic in Klingon for November 1
Voragh:
> > A more verb-oriented approach (with a different translation for "marketing
> > department"):
> >
> > DaQaH 'e' tlhob mechmeH 'ay'
> > the "trading section" requested (that) you help it/them
pm5:
>Does the following rule applies to {tlhob} "ask"? It seems yes to me,
>but I don't find any example of this usage other than the one for {ja'}
>that follows.
>
> Similarly, with verbs of saying (<say, tell, ask,> etc.), {'e'} and
> {net} are not used. The two phrases simply follow one another,
> in either order.
> {qaja'pu' HIqaghQo'} or {HIqaghQo' qaja'pu'}
> <I told you not to interrupt me.> [TKD p.67]
Note that this can also be translated as a quotation, as Okrand explains in
the next sentence:
This is literally, "I told you, 'Don't interrupt me!'" or
"'Don't interrupt me!' I told you."
What Okrand is saying is that the quotation is *not* the object of the verb
of saying, so you don't say *{<<...>> vIja'pu'}. IOW the verb of saying is
more a label to keep track of who is speaking to whom.
>I was asking should one say
>
> {DaQaH 'e' tlhob} "they ask that you help them"
With {'e'} you need the object prefix: {'e' lutlhob} "they ask that".
>or is it
>
> {DaQaH tlhob} "they ask you to help them"
>
>or both are correct? TKD says for verbs of saying {'e'} is not
>used, but only gives an example for {ja'}. I think there are {jatlh},
>{tlhob} and {ghel} that counts as "verb of saying", though using
>this construct with {ghel} seems very weird.
Okrand on {tlhob}:
What I wanted to do with {tlhob} and {ghel} is to distinguish
between two different meanings for the English verb "ask".
There are two ask's. There's the "ask" where you ask a question
and there's "ask" where you make a request. I wanted it to be
two different verbs, though apparently there are times when the
"request" verb is used to ask a question as well. So maybe the
way it works is that {ghel} can ask a question and only as a
question and the other one can mean that and is also used to
request or plead or something like that. (HolQeD 7:4)
We have two examples of {tlhob} from canon:
lutlhob <<naDevvo' vaS'a'Daq majaHlaH'a'?>>
They ask him, "Can we get to the Great Hall from here?" PK
This is a quotation with {tlhob} acting as an attribution tag.
juDev 'ej Dujvam ra'wI' DagheS 'e' vItlhob
I ask you to lead us as commander of this ship
("I request that you lead us and that you assume the duties of
commander of this ship.") KGT
This is a statement/request with {tlhob} acting as an action verb.
So the answer to your question is that both versions can be correct
depending on what you want to say:
DaQaH 'e' lutlhob.
They ask that you help them. They ask you to help them.
<<DaQaH>> tlhob.
"Help them," they requested. They ask, "Help them."
As always, the right punctuation can be helpful.
--
Voragh
Ca'Non Master of the Klingons