tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Sun Feb 08 22:34:06 1998
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Re: introduction
- From: "Albert Arendsen" <[email protected]>
- Subject: Re: introduction
- Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 07:33:55 +0100
>It is not the "g" that I'm concerned about. It is that you use
>the same letter "r" in two different types of places here. In
>one place, it is related to the {gh} sound. In the other place
>it is related to the {r} sound. If your {r} is somehow involved
>in your {gh}, then at least one of these two sounds is being
>badly mispronounced. The Klingon {r} happens at the tip of the
>tongue, not the back.
no no no.... you have to understand the pronounciation of Dutch to
understand this one. the Dutch {r} can be pronounced in two ways: as the
Klingon {r} (trilling the tounge against the top of the mouth), or very
similar to the Klingon {gh} (gargling the uvula against the back of the
toungue). any Dutchman will understand that the {r} in a {gr} or {rg} series
of letters is the one prounounced in that second way. and yes, most Dutch
pronounce all their {r}s the "gargling way", but afaik the official way is
trilling the toungue...
>> > This has to be wrong because the {r} sound before {gh} is
>> > nothing like any part of the {gh} sound. It is much farther
>> > forward in the mouth. In fact, it is focussed on the opposite
>> > end of the tongue.
>> >
>> > Normally, a Klingon {r} is lightly trilled, like most European
>> > {r}s. English does not generally do this, unless you are a very
>> > dramatic Shakespearian actor who doesn't understand the concept
>> > of "off stage". It is a vocalized sound shaped by the tip of
>> > the tongue.
>> >
>> > Most people modify this when it preceeds the {gh}, pronouncing
>> > it more like an American "r", because it is simply difficult to
>> > go from a trilled "r" at the tip of the tongue to the vocalized
>> > {H} at the back of the throat. It can be done. I do it, when I
>> > really work at it, but it is not easy. {rgh} happens in my name
>> > {charghwI'}, so I figured it would be important to know how to
>> > pronounce it well.
>> >
>> > Still, trilled or not, the {r} sound is shaped by the tip of
>> > the tongue while the {gh} sound is shaped by the back of the
>> > throat. It is not as deep as the {Q} sound, but it is
>> > definitely shaped by the throat and not the tongue tip.
>> >
>> > So, I don't care HOW you pronunce a Dutch "r", there is no such
>> > thing as an "r" sound that can exist both in {r} and in {gh}
>> > such that {ghargh} can be pronounced as "grargr".
>>
>> Well, still there is...
>> At least, if you "mispronounce" "r" as I do. :)
>
>I know that if your {r} sounds like your {gh}, I won't be able
>to understand you in Klingon.
again those two different pronounciations of the Dutch {r}... one letter,
two different pronounciations, and both pronounciations mean exactly the
same.
>> For some reason, I always make an "r" in the back of my mouth. I'm
>> not a linguist, but I believe I do it by trilling my... erm... wha't
>> it called... well, you know, that hanging blob at the back of the
>> mouth you always see in cartoons when sombody's yelling. I trill that
>> against the back of my tongue, I think. I think this is the wrong "r"
>> pronounciation Chakotay mentioned. I have tried once to trill with
>> my tongue to make an "r" sound, but I somehow couldn't. And neither
>> can most people I know (at least they don't). And still it *sounds*
>> like a trilling "r".
>
>If you can rent the video, "My Fair Lady" in English, listen to
>the way they sing, "The rain in Spain falls mainly in the
>plain." They trill the "r" in "rain", once she gets the hang of
>it, anyway. Meanwhile, the trill is not all that important. The
>keyword in "lightly trill" is "lightly", and Okrand doesn't
>always trill his "r"s. He does, however, always pronounce his
>"r" shaped by the tip of his tongue rather than the back of it.
>This is basically an American "r".
>> But from this "wrong" "r", it isn't difficult to go to a "gh" at all.
>
>Which suggests that you need to work on your {r}...
nope. YOU should work on understanding what we've been writing about. it's
been about two different pronounciations of the {r} all along, and all along
it has been said that both of those are used in/by Dutch according to their
own discression.
>> > > (Amazing, all those discussions just about *one* letter in the
>> > > alphabet... :)
>> >
>> > Without it, my name becomes {charwI'}. I don't respond well to
>> > that.
>> >
>> > > > Chakotay
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > >
>> > > /Doneq
>> > > ______
>> > > yIvoq 'ach yI'ol
>> > >
>> >
>> > charghghghghghghghghghgwI'
>> >
>> /Doneq
>> ______
>> yIvoq 'ach yI'ol
>
>charghwI'
>
Chakotay