tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Sun Feb 08 20:52:34 1998
[Date Prev][Date Next][Thread Prev][Thread Next]
Re: introduction
- From: "William H. Martin" <[email protected]>
- Subject: Re: introduction
- Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 23:51:51 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
- Priority: NORMAL
On Sat, 7 Feb 1998 01:36:48 -0800 (PST) Doneq
<[email protected]> wrote:
> ghItlh William H. Martin
>
> > The Klingon {gh} is basically a vocalized {H}. That makes it
> > essentially a growl at the back of the throat.
>
> That's exactly the way I pronounce it in normal everyday
> conversations in Dutch. Just a nice, smooth "gh". Very smooth. But
> when I speak Klingon, I make my "gh" a lot raspier. Very raspy, just
> as I hear Okrand do it on the tapes. And if I do that, it tends to
> sound (for me) like "ghr".
My point is that whatever you are calling the "r" in "ghr" must
NOT be the same sound you make when a Klingon word uses the
letter {r}. There is nothing remotely like a Klingon {r} in the
Klingon {gh}.
> > > So, what I'm saying is, if I pronounce {ghargh} in a way that I think
> > > is correct, I'd be saying somthing like [grargr]. (With an [r] as
> > > mentioned above, not an English [r], so it sounds even raspier. I
> > > really like Klingon, apart from the pain in my throat ;)
>
> I'm sorry if I confused anyone here with writing "grargr". I didn't
> mean an English "g" here, I meant the Dutch one. Maybe I should have
> written "ghrarghr".
It is not the "g" that I'm concerned about. It is that you use
the same letter "r" in two different types of places here. In
one place, it is related to the {gh} sound. In the other place
it is related to the {r} sound. If your {r} is somehow involved
in your {gh}, then at least one of these two sounds is being
badly mispronounced. The Klingon {r} happens at the tip of the
tongue, not the back.
> > This has to be wrong because the {r} sound before {gh} is
> > nothing like any part of the {gh} sound. It is much farther
> > forward in the mouth. In fact, it is focussed on the opposite
> > end of the tongue.
> >
> > Normally, a Klingon {r} is lightly trilled, like most European
> > {r}s. English does not generally do this, unless you are a very
> > dramatic Shakespearian actor who doesn't understand the concept
> > of "off stage". It is a vocalized sound shaped by the tip of
> > the tongue.
> >
> > Most people modify this when it preceeds the {gh}, pronouncing
> > it more like an American "r", because it is simply difficult to
> > go from a trilled "r" at the tip of the tongue to the vocalized
> > {H} at the back of the throat. It can be done. I do it, when I
> > really work at it, but it is not easy. {rgh} happens in my name
> > {charghwI'}, so I figured it would be important to know how to
> > pronounce it well.
> >
> > Still, trilled or not, the {r} sound is shaped by the tip of
> > the tongue while the {gh} sound is shaped by the back of the
> > throat. It is not as deep as the {Q} sound, but it is
> > definitely shaped by the throat and not the tongue tip.
> >
> > So, I don't care HOW you pronunce a Dutch "r", there is no such
> > thing as an "r" sound that can exist both in {r} and in {gh}
> > such that {ghargh} can be pronounced as "grargr".
>
> Well, still there is...
> At least, if you "mispronounce" "r" as I do. :)
I know that if your {r} sounds like your {gh}, I won't be able
to understand you in Klingon.
> For some reason, I always make an "r" in the back of my mouth. I'm
> not a linguist, but I believe I do it by trilling my... erm... wha't
> it called... well, you know, that hanging blob at the back of the
> mouth you always see in cartoons when sombody's yelling. I trill that
> against the back of my tongue, I think. I think this is the wrong "r"
> pronounciation Chakotay mentioned. I have tried once to trill with
> my tongue to make an "r" sound, but I somehow couldn't. And neither
> can most people I know (at least they don't). And still it *sounds*
> like a trilling "r".
If you can rent the video, "My Fair Lady" in English, listen to
the way they sing, "The rain in Spain falls mainly in the
plain." They trill the "r" in "rain", once she gets the hang of
it, anyway. Meanwhile, the trill is not all that important. The
keyword in "lightly trill" is "lightly", and Okrand doesn't
always trill his "r"s. He does, however, always pronounce his
"r" shaped by the tip of his tongue rather than the back of it.
This is basically an American "r".
> But from this "wrong" "r", it isn't difficult to go to a "gh" at all.
Which suggests that you need to work on your {r}...
> > > (Amazing, all those discussions just about *one* letter in the
> > > alphabet... :)
> >
> > Without it, my name becomes {charwI'}. I don't respond well to
> > that.
> >
> > > > Chakotay
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > /Doneq
> > > ______
> > > yIvoq 'ach yI'ol
> > >
> >
> > charghghghghghghghghghgwI'
> >
> /Doneq
> ______
> yIvoq 'ach yI'ol
charghwI'