tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Sun Oct 11 08:51:41 2015
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Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Star Trek VI The Undiscovered Country Klingon Dialogue
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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-CA link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal>> does this<span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> mean that nouns are always (whenever they are stringed together) grouped in pairs ? i.e. the first two, then the next two etc ?<br></span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><br>ghobe’. No it doesn’t.<br><br>Here are some groupings from canon sentences<br><br><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span class=tlh>tlhIngan wo' Degh --> (Klingon Empire) symbol<br></span><b>tlhIngan qorDu’ pong --> a Klingon’s (family name)<br>HoS Hal qengwI’ naQ --> ((power source) carrier) stick)<br>tlhIngan yo’ SuvwI’ --> (Klingon fleet) warrior</b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><br><br>Please have another look at that e-mail with all the parentheses, and see I described that the nouns might be grouped in any way. You must use your knowledge of the world to decide which grouping is sensible for the sentence. I’m describing the language in little bits at a time for you, so each is something you can learn, and after each e-mail you have a little more that you can add to the conversation, but the messages lojmIt tI’wI’ nuv is sending regarding thinking about the language are no less important. It’s not a little code. It’s a language that means something and neither boQwI’ nor Bing will ever bring what you already have in your head to understanding it.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>></span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>> tlhIngan qam ‘oH = it is a foot of a Klingon, or it is a Klingon's foot<br></span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>></span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>> qam Hom ‘oH = it is a bone of the foot,or it is the foot's bone<br></span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>></span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>> baS qam ‘oH = it is a metallic foot<br></span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>></span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>> tlhIngan baS qam ‘oH = it is a foot of a metallic Klingon (this sounds a little weird), or it is a Klingon metallic foot.</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>lugh! (right!) so unless someone were already talking about a Klingon Terminator or the like, you would probably lean towards its being a metallic Klingon foot. Maybe a prosthetic?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>> You are a human foot surgeon = qam HaqwI Human SoH</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><br><br>Hmm. The last noun in any grouping is the one that is the thing, with the others being ones that describe it or each other. So you’re calling this person some sort of human. Either they are a (qam HaqwI’) Human – a foot-surgeon Human—or they are a qam (HaqwI’ Human)---a foot’s surgeon-Human. I guess the person is a member of a group of humans who have been captured and made into slaves or some kind of exhibition, each individual designated by his or her role. The foot-surgeon Human makes sense there. I can’t even make up a story to make sense of a foot’s surgeon-Human. So try that one again. </span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Noun-noun constructions are, for some reason, often challenging for beginners. I think it may be because basic Klingon sentence order hasn’t solidified in their brains yet, so they are still imposing the order of their native language. Or they start to think of the modifying nouns as adjectives, and then ... but why would I need to tell you how to get confused when you can find your way there without trouble?<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><span class=im><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>> </span></span><span class=im><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>lojmIt tI’wI’ nuv ‘utlh </span></span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>what is {vIrI'} ? i can't find its meaning.. </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>> </span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>And yes,you are right ; in order for someone to learn any kind of language (real or constructed) he has to learn to think in that language,and not just try to replace words from his </span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><br>> </span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>native language to the one he's trying to learn. That is why i have bought every Klingon book i managed to find,hoping that as soon as i learn the basics,i will start reading -even at a </span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>> </span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>very slow pace- in Klingon so as to get the <<feel>> of the Klingon.</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><br><br>Ah good. You are taking his words to heart. I will also send you a Klingon story confined to simpler grammatical structures and basic vocabulary.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>- Qov</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 2:14 AM, lojmIt tI'wI' nuv 'utlh <<a href="mailto:[email protected]"; target="_blank">[email protected]</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Just to supplement Qov’s excellent answers and lessons here, I just want to open your mind to principles that are mentioned in The Klingon Dictionary, but tend to be glossed over by new people learning the language.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Klingon is a language, not a code. Implied in this, you need to realize that replacing English words with Klingon words and changing the word order is not always going to translate an English sentence into a Klingon sentence very well. Sometimes, you have to pay less attention to the words in an English sentence and pay more attention to its meaning.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>In particular, I’m going to make the sentence I’m now writing somewhat of an example of how a person speaking English can easily pack a lot more than that “single thought” they taught you about in high school, which is supposed to be the official boundary of what constitutes a sentence into a sentence, but in fact, English, though its extensive use of “helper words”, can pack quite a bit more than a single thought into a sentence and just keep on going, sucking in new ideas that have nothing to do with the original “single thought” that a sentence was supposed to have contained, much like the term “cottage cheese”, which I once dreamed quite believably within the boundaries of the dream to be the secret of the Universe — the answer to all questions — even though it has absolutely nothing to do with the sentence I started writing to illustrate one of the differences between Klingon grammar and English grammar.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>My point is, that English can pack much more into a sentence than any self-respecting Klingon speaker would ever want to TRY to pack into one Klingon sentence.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>So, if you want to say, “I am a human foot surgeon,” there is no reason to not break that down into two Klingon sentences. {HaqwI’ jIH. Human jIH.}<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Or, if you wanted to make that other statement: HaqwI’ jIH. Human qamDu’ vIrI’.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>It makes for very clear expression of meaning, and avoids the artificial challenge of packing three nouns together, leaving the listener to figure out from context what the relationship is among them. Don’t expect to hold a Klingon’s attention by packing more than one thought into a sentence. He might hurt you. Don’t tease a gorilla, and don’t speak long, complex sentences to a Klingon.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>In TKD, Okrand also points out that in Klingon, it is much more common than in English to repeat the same noun in a sentence, where in English we tend to replace all but the first mention with pronouns. The point here is that Klingon sentences tend to be short enough that you aren’t padding them all that much to repeat a noun now and then, and it gives you the opportunity to be extremely clear about exactly whom or what you are talking about.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Since Klingons are often discussing things like whom to kill or what to destroy, clarity has a lot of cultural value. Learn to speak Klingon clearly.<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>lojmIt tI’wI’ nuv ‘utlh<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Door Repair Guy, Retired Honorably<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Oct 10, 2015, at 11:46 AM, HoD qunnoQ <<a href="mailto:[email protected]"; target="_blank">[email protected]</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>thanks for the corrections ! yes indeed i tried to say that Qov is a space ship,but i got the word order wrong ; but now i understand how i should have written it.<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>moving on to your new question,as i understand it,it asks "am i a paper book ?" but yet another question arises.. the 'a' is an interrogative ; why place a question mark at the end ? isn't that unnecessary ?<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>and to try to answer to the question : ghobe'. qam HaqwI' SoH. <br><br>but if wanted to write "no,you are a human foot surgeon" how would i write it ? "ghobe'. qam HaqwI' Human SoH " ?<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>qunnoQ<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Sat, Oct 10, 2015 at 3:42 PM, David Holt <<a href="mailto:[email protected]"; target="_blank">[email protected]</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>>> HaqwI' JIH je. qam HaqwI' jIH. ro HaqwI' SoH'a'?<br>><br>> with the help of the boQwI app i think that this means : "i'm a surgeon<br>> too. a foot surgeon. are you a trunk/body surgeon ?"<br><br>maj!<br><br>> i would like to give the reply "no,i'm an orthopaedic surgeon". So<br>> maybe i would say : "Qo'. ghIv HaqwI' jiH."<br><br>Check what boQwI' says about {Qo'} as an exclamation. It cannot be used to answer a "yes" or "no" question. It is used when somebody tells you to do something and you refuse. Now look up {ghobe'}. The sentence which follows that was very well done. majQa'!<br><br>> @ Qov (robyn) : Duj logh SoH ! <br><br>Perfect use of {SoH}! Though I think the other words may have gotten a little mixed up.<br><br>When you put two nouns together (like {ghIv HaqwI'} and {Duj logh}), the second noun is the thing being described and the first noun modifies it in some way. A common relationship between the two is that the first noun is owner of the second noun. But it may also be that the second noun is made out of the first noun. Or that second noun is the type used by the first noun. Other more complicated relationships are possible, but the point it's a first-noun kind of second-noun. By the way, this is exactly how we do it in English, too and when you are putting two nouns together you can often (but not always) just put the English and Klingon in the same order (for possession we add 's in English, but nothing in Klingon). In those cases where that is not clear, it helps to reverse the order of the words and insert "of".<br><br>{janSIy SID} is "Johnshee's patient" (ownership). {baS Haqtaj} is a "steel scalpel" (made of). {tlhIngan Duj} is a "Klingon ship" (used by). {yIn Quj} is the "game of life" (more complicated relationship).<br><br>So I am a "foot kind of surgeon", a "foot surgeon", or a "surgeon of the foot". You are a "limb kind of surgeon", a "limb surgeon", or a "surgeon of the limbs". And you've described Qov as a "ship kind of outer space", a "ship outer space", or an "outer space of a ship". You might have instead meant {Duj} to mean "instinct", but I'm proceeding under the assumption that you meant to call Qov a "space ship". If that's the case, then you're saying she's a kind of ship and the kind of ship is a space kind. The descriptor goes first followed by the thing being described. So {logh Duj} is "space ship".<br><br>nav paq jIH'a'?<o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><br>janSIy<br>_______________________________________________<br>Tlhingan-hol mailing list<br><a href="mailto:[email protected]"; target="_blank">[email protected]</a><br><a href="http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol"; target="_blank">http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol</a><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal>_______________________________________________<br>Tlhingan-hol mailing list<br><a href="mailto:[email protected]"; target="_blank">[email protected]</a><br><a href="http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol"; target="_blank">http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol</a><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></blockquote></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>_______________________________________________<br>Tlhingan-hol mailing list<br><a href="mailto:[email protected]";>[email protected]</a><br><a href="http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol"; target="_blank">http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div></body></html>_______________________________________________
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