tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Thu Oct 03 05:15:58 2013

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Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Klingon Word of the Day: maghwI'

Felix Malmenbeck (felixm@kth.se)



> Another difference that strikes me - again based on the gloss - is that {"ur} "commit treason"
> may not take an object whereas {magh} "betray" does, but we'll have to wait for more examples
> to be certain.  Are there any in the {paq'batlh}?

Yes, but they don't really provide much clarification in this matter, I'm afraid.


paq'batlh, paq'yav, Canto 9, Stanza 8:

And Kahless dropped his sword
To kill the traitor with bare hands,
Morath felt the end was near.

‘urwI’ HoHmeH ghopDu’Daj neH lo’meH qeylIS
‘etlhDaj chagh
tugh Hegh ‘e’ Sov moratlh

(Spoken by the Master of Screams. Morath had betrayed his house to Molor, so the "treason" connection makes sense. Not sure how much one should read into it, though.)


paq'batlh, paq'raD, Canto 5, Stanza 8:

qempa'QeH
'Iw bIQtIqDaq maleng
'ej 'urwI'vam wIjey

Qempa'keh [the wrathful spirits of the dead], we will travel,
Up the river of blood
And bring this traitor down!

(Spoken by Kotar. The betrayal here is entering Gre'thor and freeing two souls.)


paq'batlh, paq'raD, Canto 19, Stanza 1:

Qo'noS 'urwI'
SaqSub 'urwI'
Seghmaj 'urwI'

Traitor of Kronos,
Traitor of the Saq'sub,
Traitor of our race!

(Spoken by Kahless to Molor.)


paq'batlh, paq'raD, Canto 19, Stanza 2

qorDu'wIj quvmo' jImaghpu'
qorDu'wIj quvqa'moHlu'meH
jIvang vIneH

The reason of my betrayal
Was my family honor,
I want to restore this honor.

(Spoken by Kahless to Kotar.)
________________________________________
From: Steven Boozer [sboozer@uchicago.edu]
Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2013 15:15
To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
Subject: Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Klingon Word of the Day: maghwI'

Voragh:
>>> [KWOTD: maghwI' traitor (n)][]
>>
>> 'urwI'  traitor (n) [difference from {maghwI'} unknown]
>> magh    betray, act against (S26) (v)
>> 'ur     commit treason (v)

De'vID:
> Surely the difference is that a {maghwI'} is a "traitor (betrayer)",
> whereas an {'urwI'} is a "traitor (one who commits treason)". The former
> leaves open who or what has been betrayed, whereas the latter specifies
> that it is a ruler, state, or other political entity (someone or something
> the betrayal of whom or which constitutes treason).
>
> The fact that the English glosses are identical obscures this difference,
> but it's clear in the Klingon.

That's pretty much what I imagine, though I don't like relying just on the English gloss for {'ur}.  We do have examples for {magh} are:

  <numagh>
  [They've betrayed us. (Untranslated)] ST6

  ngoQvam luchavmeH ghawran maghpu' be'nI'pu'
  To this end, the sisters have acted against Gowron...
  in order to gain power. S26

  wo' Damagh 'ej bIHegh
  Die betraying the Empire. MKE

Another difference that strikes me - again based on the gloss - is that {"ur} "commit treason" may not take an object whereas {magh} "betray" does, but we'll have to wait for more examples to be certain.  Are there any in the {paq'batlh}?


--
Voragh
Ca'Non Master of the Klingons



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