tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Thu May 02 11:06:23 2013

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Re: [Tlhingan-hol] questions on {-ghach} and {-meH}

Ruben Molina (rmolina@gmail.com)



On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 5:05 AM, Rohan Fenwick <qeslagh@hotmail.com> wrote:
> ghItlhpu' ru'ben, jatlh:
>> Hi everyone,
>> I haven't tried to write anything in klingon in a long long time, so I
>> tried tonight and I got a few questions...
>
> qajang jIH 'e' vInIDbej.
>
>
>> Although I have the impression that {-ghach} is not really recommended
>> (is that true?) I tried to use it anyway...
>
> The thing about {-ghach} is that a lot of people try to translate
> word-for-word from English using it instead of using other grammatical tools
> that are probably better options. It's not that common that {-ghach} is
> genuinely the best choice. For instance, your {bIQ watlhmoHghach patmey}
> does mean "systems of water purification", but it doesn't have the idea of
> purpose: systems *for the purpose of* water purification. You could use a
> purpose clause in {-meH} instead. {bIQ watlhmoHmeH patmey} means "systems
> for the purpose of purifying water"; it explicitly carries that idea of
> purpose that's lacking from the version with {-ghach}.
>

I see, thank you.  Even if {watlhmoHghach} could be parsed as "purification",
it is not the best way to use when we add some context, as in
"purification system".
That's really interesting :)



> taH:
>> {veQ boStaHghach Hemey 'oghtaH
>
> "He/she/it is/they are devising garbage collection routes". Again, {veQ
> boSmeH Hemey} would be better, but it's understandable as it is.
>

So, I can use  {veQ boStaHmeH Hemey vI'oghtaH} for
"I devise routes for the purpose garbage collecting",
and then, I can use both {-ghach} and {-meH} in something like
{veQ boStaHghach poHmey DubtaHmeH Hemey vI'oghtaH} for
"I devise routes for the purpose of improving the garbage collection times"
right?



>> 'ej qatlhDa'mey patmey je biQ watlhmoHghach patmey
>
> This is where I start to have trouble. Literally, this means "the water
> purification systems of the conduits and systems". Remember that the
> possessor comes first: {patmey qatlhDa'mey} would be "conduits of the
> systems". Do you mean "conduits and systems of water purification systems"?
>

From http://www.qephom.de/e/newwords.html I got {qatlhDa'} as "water pipe",
so I was trying "systems of water pipes and systems of water purification"
As I had noun-noun constructions  I used {je} to join them.

But now that I know it works better with {-meH}, I can probably use
something like {lup}...

{bIQ watlhmoHmeH patmey 'ej bIQ lupmeH patmey}
"systems for the purpose of purifying water and systems for the
purpose of transporting water"
(Here I added -meH in both verbs, following your answer to my second question)

As the systems continuosly purify and transport (new) water, I think
it should be:
{bIQ watlhmoHtaHmeH patmey 'ej bIQ luptaHmeH patmey}.

Can/should it be "compressed" as something like
{bIQ watlhmoHtaHmeH 'ej bIQ luptaHmeH patmey} or
{bIQ watlhmoHtaHmeH patmey 'ej luptaHmeH patmey} or
{bIQ watlhmoHtaHmeH 'ej luptaHmeH patmey} ?
I'm thinking it should not be "compressed", right?

>
>> utlhtaH 'e' jonwI'pu' 'ampaSDaq vIghojta'}
>
> {utlhtaH} is presumably a typo for {mutlhtaH}, so that's only minor. I can

Indeed. Thanks.

> see what you were trying to express: I'm guessing "I have studied
> constructing [the stuff you talked about in the previous clause] at
> engineers' academy".
>

Yes, something like that :)

> Remember that {'e'} is the object and so should come after the location in
> {-Daq}. According to TKD, you also shouldn't use an aspect suffix on a verb
> that has {'e'} as its object. So: {jonwI' 'ampaSDaq 'e' vIghoj} "I learned
> that... (previous clause) at engineering school".
>

I didn't notice that rule before, thanks.
TKD (p66) certainly says that the second verb is "neutral as to time".

Now, completing the sentence...

{bIQ watlhmoHtaHmeH patmey 'ej bIQ luptaHmeH patmey vImutlhtaHmeH
 'ej veQ boStaHghach poHmey DubtaHmeH Hemey vI'oghtaHmeH
jonwI'pu' 'ampaSDaq 'e' vIghoj}

I have a problem there... It is not clear the role of the first {'ej}
and the second {'ej}...

I think can split that fist sentence in two...

{bIQ watlhmoHtaHmeH patmey vImutlhtaHmeH 'ej bIQ luptaHmeH patmey vImutlhtaHmeH
 'ej veQ boStaHghach poHmey DubtaHmeH Hemey vI'oghtaHmeH
jonwI'pu' 'ampaSDaq 'e' vIghoj}

But what if I want to use two verbs for each system?

{bIQ watlhmoHtaHmeH patmey vImutlhtaHmeH 'ej vI'oghtaHmeH,
'ej bIQ luptaHmeH patmey vImutlhtaHmeH 'ej vI'oghtaHmeH,
'ej veQ boStaHghach poHmey DubtaHmeH Hemey vI'oghtaHmeH,
jonwI'pu' 'ampaSDaq 'e' vIghoj}

Would that work?

Or should I expand it?
{bIQ watlhmoHtaHmeH patmey vI'oghtaHmeH,
'ej bIQ watlhmoHtaHmeH patmey vImutlhtaHmeH,
'ej bIQ luptaHmeH patmey vI'oghtaHmeH,
'ej bIQ luptaHmeH patmey vImutlhtaHmeH,
'ej veQ boStaHghach poHmey DubtaHmeH Hemey vI'oghtaHmeH,
jonwI'pu' 'ampaSDaq 'e' vIghoj}

I hope that's not required :S

Let's assume for now the expansion is not needed... So I have:
{bIQ watlhmoHtaHmeH patmey vImutlhtaHmeH 'ej vI'oghtaHmeH,
'ej bIQ luptaHmeH patmey vImutlhtaHmeH 'ej vI'oghtaHmeH,
'ej veQ boStaHghach poHmey DubtaHmeH Hemey vI'oghtaHmeH,
jonwI'pu' 'ampaSDaq 'e' vIghoj}

That's two (or three) things I learned... but not the only things I learned...
 Is there a common expression to add the meaning "among others"?



Now, I believe the sentence can be parsed as...
"I design and construct systems for the purpose of water purification,
I design and construct systems for the purpose of water
transportation, I design and construct systems for the purpose of
water purification, I devise routes for the purpose of improving the
garbage collection times, I learned  that (previous stuff) in the
academy of engineers", right?

Well... I don't really perform any of those activities...  although
those are the main activities in my field,
 I have always worked in a different set of activities which I am
still trying to render in Klingon...

What would you do? I think I can use {-laH} in order to express that I
"can" do it, and then complete the sentence using {'ach} "in fact, I
do some stuff instead"

So, {bIQ watlhmoHtaHmeH patmey vImutlhlaHtaHmeH 'ej vI'oghlaHtaHmeH,
'ej bIQ luplaHtaHmeH patmey vImutlhlaHtaHmeH 'ej vI'oghlaHtaHmeH,
'ej veQ boStaHghach poHmey DubtaHmeH Hemey vI'oghlaHtaHmeH,
jonwI'pu' 'ampaSDaq 'e' vIghoj 'ach [I do something else]}... would that work?
My second option is to use {-law} but it seems to give a bad
impression in the sentence...


I not sure how to express what I really do... I am thinking on
something like: {yIm QantaHmeH biQvo' je muDvo' tarHommey teqtaHghach
bopbogh ghantoHmey vI'oghtaH 'ej vIghunbejtaH} for "I (in fact) devise
and program computer models (continuosly) which are about the remotion
(?) of contaminants (?) from the water and the atmosphere, with the
purpose of protecting life" or something in the lines..

So it would be...

{bIQ watlhmoHtaHmeH patmey vImutlhlaHtaHmeH 'ej vI'oghlaHtaHmeH, 'ej
bIQ luplaHtaHmeH patmey vImutlhlaHtaHmeH 'ej vI'oghlaHtaHmeH, 'ej veQ
boStaHghach poHmey DubtaHmeH Hemey vI'oghlaHtaHmeH, jonwI'pu'
'ampaSDaq 'e' vIghoj 'ach yIm QantaHmeH biQvo' je muDvo' tarHommey
teqtaHghach bopbogh ghantoHmey vI'oghtaH 'ej vIghunmejtaH}



BTW, I noticed you used {jonwI' 'ampaSDaq} instead of my {jonwI'pu'
'ampaSDaq}.
Is that preferred?



>> {veQ boStaHghach Hemey 'ogh 'ej qatlhDa'mey patmey je biQ atlhmoHghach
>> patmey mutlhmeH jonwI'pu' 'ampaSDaq jIqeqpu'}
>
> Throughout, use first person subject prefixes where it's appropriate: you're
> talking about yourself, after all. For instance, {veQ boStaHghach Hemey
> vI'ogh} "I invent routes of garbage collection".
>

right,  Thanks.

>
>> 2) Is {-meH} in the right place here? Should I put it on {'ogh}
>> instead? Should I put it in both verbs?
>
> Yes, it should go on both verbs. For instance:
>
> jIghojmeH 'ej jIqeqmeH 'ampaS vIjaH.
> I go to school in order that I learn and in order that I train.
>
> Notice that I've also used subject prefixes on the {-meH}-marked verbs here
> when they modify a main verb. (When they modify a noun, things get a bit
> more complicated.)
>

I used the correction above.  Thanks



>
>> *) bonus question: Is there a commonly used expression for
>> "engineering"? I can imagine something like {jonwI' Qap} would do it,
>
> "It succeeds the engineer"? No, probably not. As often in Klingon, it's a
> matter of finding something that works in context. In Trek "engineering" is
> often used as the name of a place, a shorthand for "engineering deck", in
> which case I find myself often using something like {jonwI' yaH} "engineer's
> duty station". As an abstract subject, perhaps {jonwI' Sov} "engineer's
> knowledge" or {jonwI' paQDI'norgh} "engineer's teachings" might do.
>

I was thinking on "work/function of the engineer",
but then again, {Qap} is a verb, not a noun.
What I was trying was {Qu'} "task, chore (n)".
{jonwI' Qu'} as "the task of the engineer".
I like your  {jonwI' Sov} too.



>
>> Thanks a lot,
>> ru'ben
>
> qay'be'! qaboQpu'chugh jIbel.
>
>

QeS 'utlh qatlho' :)


>> PS: yep, I just put and apostrophe in my name, let's see... {ru'} be
>> temporary (n),
>
> Note that {ru'} is a verb, not a noun.

right. sorry.

>
>> {ben} years ago (n), ... uhmm... temporary since years
>> ago? like a permanent beta? or a cracked trial version? I like it.
>> lol.
>
> "The years past are temporary." A deep philosophy. :)
>

lol.  Impressive.

> QeS 'utlh
>
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