tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Tue Oct 27 11:39:26 2009

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Re: Ditransitive reflexives

David Trimboli ( [KLI Member] [Hol po'wI']

André Müller wrote:
> I think what Lieven was implying was that it *might* be that if you
> can use the "prefix trick" (isn't this simply what's usually called
> dative-shift?) for ditransitive sentences too. So, a ditransitive
> verb like give with the prefix trick looks as if it had two direct
> objects: one expressed by the prefix and an overt one in form of a
> noun. A double accusative structure, if you want it that way. It's
> not unlogical to reason that using the reciprocal suffix {-chuq}
> behind the ditransitive verb expresses likewise the meaning of
> "giving X to each other". We don't have any canon phrases expressing
> this concept, but a sentence like that *could* be: {yuch nobchuqpu'}
> But this is only an educated guess, as there's no example in the
> corpus, we can only guess... but maybe there are other possibilities,
> like {yuch lutampu'} (they exchanged chocolate). ;)

The so-called prefix trick can be explained by distinguishing objects 
from direct and indirect objects. The verb prefix normally represents 
the direct object. However, when the prefixes indicating first- or 
second-person objects (qa-, Sa-, cho-, ju-, mu-, Du-, nu-, lI-, pI-, 
re-, tu-, che-, nI-, HI-, gho-} do not agree with the direct object, and 
assuming the sentence is valid, the prefix indicates an unstated 
indirect object (pronoun). The prefix trick does not work with 
third-person–object or no-object prefixes (jI-, vI, bI-, Da-, 0, ma-, 
wI-, DI-, Su-, bo-, lu-, yI-, tI-).

{tam} means "exchange, substitute," so {yuch lutampu'} probably means 
"they substituted chocolate (for something else)."

Without reflexive pronouns, I don't see any way to express this short of 
completely recasting it. Knowing the context would be necessary for 
this. For example, {muSHa'chuqmo' be' loD je, bangDajvaD yuch nobpu' 
Hoch qoch.}

tlhIngan Hol MUSH

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