tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Thu Nov 19 09:01:35 2009

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RE: Locatives

Steven Boozer (sboozer@uchicago.edu)



Tracy Canfield:
>> Are there any limits on which nouns may take the -Daq ending?

te'reS:
>Voragh will be here soon with examples, but briefly...

Hey, it's what I do!  Examples listed below...

>> (1)  Can it be used with nouns referring to people?  Some languages
>> with locative constructions use them with nouns for people, with
>> meanings along the lines of "where so-and-so is" or "at so-and-so's
>> house."  Does Klingon allow this?
>
>I've never seen this usage in Klingon.

I've long wondered about this.  We finally saw an example in HolQeD 10.2 in Okrand's article on the finer points of using the "finger verbs":

  qI'empeqDaq jIqan
  (I think that) K'mpec is old
  (lit. "I point at K'mpec with my little finger").  (HQ 10.2:11)

I don't see why we shouldn't be able to say:

  wo'rIvDaq qaghom.
  I'll meet you at Worf's.

  quwarghDaq matlhutlh DaneH'a'?
  Do you want to get a drink at Quark's?

If you don't like this, you can always insert the implied noun:

  wo'rIv pa'Daq qaghom.
  I'll meet you at Worf's quarters.

  quwargh tachDaq matlhutlh DaneH'a'?
  Do you want (us) to drink at Quark's bar?

We have an example of this last method:

  quwargh tach Qe' je qoDDaq Hov leng Soj DatIv
  Enjoy Star Trek themed food and drink at Quark's Bar and Restaurant. STX

In fact, I've often thought that this would be a good way to form names of restaurants, etc. --  ?{quwarghDaq} "Chez Quark".


We have examples of {-Daq} on other proper names (places):

Qo'noSDaq bIghIQ'a'
Are you vacationing on Kronos? CK

HIja', Qo'noSDaq jIghIQ
Yes, I'm vacationing on Kronos. CK

Qo'noSDaq paw cha' DIvI' beq
Two Federation crewmen arrive on Kronos. PK

juHqo' Qo'noSvo' loghDaq lengtaHvIS tlhInganpu'
During the (aggressive) expansion of the Klingon people from their homeworld of Kronos into space... SP1

tlhIngan juHqo'Daq tlhIng yoSDaq 'oH toQDuj chenmoHlu'meH Daq wa'DIch'e'
1st Construction Site: The Kling District, Klingon Home World. KBOP

ghe''orDaq luSpet 'oH DaqlIj'e'
You belong in a black hole in the Netherworld! PK

'Iw bIQtIqDaq bIlengjaj
May you travel the River of Blood. PK

'Iw bIQtIqDaq jIjaH
I travel the River of Blood. TKW

nImbuS wejDaq 'ejDo' 'entepray' ngeHlu'pu'
The starship Enterprise has been dispatched to Nimbus III. ST5

rura' pente'Daq Soj, Doch, <luch?> vIqIch
We is condemning food... things and supplies to Rura Penthe. (sic for vIHIj) ST6

QI'tomerDaq Heghpu' Hoch
No one survived Khitomer ("Everyone died at Khitomer"). TKW

rura' pente'Daq chuch ngevlaH ghaH
He can sell ice on Rura Penthe. TKW

batlh maHeghbej 'ej yo' qIjDaq vavpu'ma' DImuv
Then we die with honor and join our fathers in the Black Fleet... (Anthem)

laS veghaS HIltonDaq <Hov leng: yIjeSchu'> qaSchoHmo', bIlopqu'meH HIlton yIghoS
Come celebrate the grand opening of Star Trek: The Experience at the Las Vegas Hilton. STX

naDevvo' vaS'a'Daq majaHlaH'a'
Can we get to the Great Hall from here? PK

... ship names:

Qo'noS wa'Daq baHta' ['entepray']
"Enterprise fired on Kronos One..."

DIvI' 'ejDo' 'entepray'Daq Dajollu'
Get beamed aboard the USS Enterprise. STX

... and what may be the proper name of a annual conference:

qep'a' wejDIchDaq jatlhtaH tlhIngan Hol HaDwI'pu'.
[untranslated] (st.klingon, MO to SuStel 11/96)

(i.e. the Third [KLI] Conference)


>> (1a)  And if it does, can -Daq be used with pronouns?  We know that
>> -'e', another Type 5 suffix, can attach to pronouns - do we know about
>> -Daq?
>
>I don't see why not, eg. {jIHDaq Sum Duj}. 'The ship is close to me.'

SoHDaq Sum raS
You are near the table. (HQ 12/1998)

SoHDaq qeylIS qa' yInjaj
May the spirit of Kahless live within you! PK


>> (1b)  Similarly, TKD 3.4 gives us nagh DungDaq "above the rock",
>> formed using the noun-noun construction "nagh Dung" plus -Daq.  We
>> also know that pronouns can't be used in possessive constructions, and
>> the possessive suffixes are used instead (TKD 5.1).
>>
>> So would "above me" be DungwI'Daq?
>
>No, these are a special case. In these cases, you use the independent
>pronoun in an N-N construction: {jIH DungDaq}. I think this is the only
>time you can use an independent pronoun to show possession.

DungDaq legh 'ej QotnIStaH romuluSngan be'pu'
Romulan women belong on their backs! (ST5 notes)



>> (2)  Can -Daq be used with abstract nouns?  It doesn't seem to have a
>> metaphorical sense that locative constructions in other languages have
>> - I think every example I've seen with it refers to a location in
>> space.
>
>I believe both {-Daq} and {-vo'} refer strictly to location (you couldn't
>use them, for example, to say that a work was translated from English
>into Klingon).

st.k 3/23/98:  In English, the preposition "in" is sometimes locative (that is, referring to location) in meaning (e.g., in the house, on the table) but sometimes not (as in the examples cited above, trust in God, believe in magic). In fact, in English, in frequently doesn't have a literally locative sense. We use it all over the place: in debt, work in television, in preparing this report, speaking in Klingon, and so on. Likewise, in addition to the locative uses of the English preposition from (run from the burning house, traveled from Paris), there are non-locative uses (know right from wrong, stop me from eating). The story's the same for other English prepositions (for example, locative on the table, non-locative go on with your story; locative under the table, non-locative under discussion). In Klingon, however, the noun suffixes {-Daq} (the general locative) and {-vo'} from express only notions related to space (to a place, in a place, from a place, and so on). They are thus not the same as English prepositions, which have a wider range of usage." (BBS 3/23/98)


FYI here are the results of a "canon sweep" for {-Daq}:

"This suffix indicates that something is happening (or has happened or will happen) in the vicinity of the noun to which it is attached. It is normally translated by an English preposition: to, in, at, on. The exact translation is determined by the meaning of the whole sentence. For example, pa'Daq is pa' room plus the suffix -Daq. It may occur in sentences such as the following: pa'Daq jIHtaH I'm in the room. pa'Daq yIjaH Go to the room! In the first sentence, jIH I is used in the sense of I am (see section 6.3), so in is the most reasonable translation of -Daq. In the second sentence, the verb is jaH go, so to makes the most sense as a translation of -Daq. An English preposition need not be a part of the translation. Klingon Dung means area above, and DungDaq is overhead, literally something like "at the area above." For further discussion on prepositional concepts, see section 3.4. It is worth noting at this point that the concepts expressed by the English adverbs here, there, and everywhere are expressed by nouns in Klingon: naDev hereabouts, pa' thereabouts, Dat everywhere. These words may perhaps be translated more literally as "area around here," "area over there," and "all places," respectively. Unlike other nouns, these three words are never followed by the locative suffix [-Daq]. (Note that pa' thereabouts and pa' room are identical in sound; pa'Daq, however, can mean only in/to the room.) There are a few verbs whose meanings include locative notions, such as ghoS approach, proceed. The locative suffix need not be used on nouns which are the objects of such verbs: Duj ghoStaH It is approaching the ship. yuQ wIghoStaH We are proceeding toward the planet. If the locative suffix is used with such verbs, the resulting sentence is somewhat redundant, but not out-and-out wrong: DujDaq ghoStaH It is approaching toward the ship." (TKD 27f.)

"If a Type 5 noun suffix is used (section 3.3.5), it follows the verb, which, when used to modify the noun in this way, can have no other suffix except the rover -qu' emphatic. The Type 5 noun suffix follows -qu'... veng tInqu'Daq in the very big city." (TKD 50)

"There is an idiomatic expression still heard with reasonable frequency which makes use of all three cardinal direction terms: tIngvo' 'evDaq chanDaq. Literally, this means from area-southwestward to area-northwestward to area eastward, but the idiom means all around, all over, all over the place. It is used in the same place in a sentence that the noun Dat "everywhere" might be used, but it is much more emphatic: tIngvo' 'evDaq chanDaq jIlengpu' I've traveled all over the place. A more archaic form of the idiom is tIngvo' 'evDaq 'evvo' chanDaq (literally, from area-southwestward to area-northwestward, from area-northwestward to area eastward), but the three-word version (without the repetition of 'ev) has all but totally replaced it." (st.k 11/21/99)


Example sentences:

qamDu'wIjDaq
at my feet TKD

DIvI'may'DujmeyDaq
at/to the Federation battle cruisers TKD

veng tInDaq
in the big city TKD

veng tInqu'Daq
in the very big city TKD

teplIj yIwoH 'ej pa'lIjDaq yIjaH
Pick up your baggage and go to your room. CK

ghorgh pa'wIjDaq jIchegh
When can I return to my room? CK

qabwIjDaq Soj tu'lu'bej
There's food all over my face. CK

tachDaq choDor'a'
Will you escort me to a bar? CK

pa'Daq qaStaH nuq
What's happening over there? [sic] CK

reH HIvje'lIjDaq 'Iwghargh Datu'jaj
May you always find a bloodworm in your glass! PK

QuvlIjDaq yIH tu'be'lu'jaj
May your coordinates be free of tribbles! PK

DopDaq qul yIchenmoH QobDI' ghu'
Set fire on the side when there is danger. PK

reH latlh qabDaq qul tuj law' Hoch tuj puS
The fire is always hotter on someone else's face. PK

lojmIt poSDaq Daq pagh
No one eavesdrops at an open door. PK

juHwIjDaq Dochvetlh vItlhap
I will take that to my home. PK

Ho'Du'lIjDaq to'baj 'uSHom lughoDlu'bogh tu'lu'
You have some stuffed tobbaj leg in your teeth. PK

naDev juHlIjDaq cha'logh jISopneSchugh vaj jIquv
It would be an honor to eat twice here at your house, your Honor. PK

logh veQDaq bachchugh, yoH 'e' toblaHbe' SuvwI'
Shooting space garbage is no test of a warrior's mettle. (ST5 notes)

qIbDaq SuvwI''e' SoH Dun law' Hoch Dun puS
You would be the greatest warrior in the galaxy. ST5

qIrq.  DujHomDaq ghaHtaH!
Kirk. He's on the shuttlecraft! ST5

DIHIvbe'ch[ugh] qo'chajDaq toy'wI''a' DImoj
Attack or be slaves in their world. ST6

QongDaqDaq Qotbe' tlhInganpu'
Klingons do not lie in bed. TKW

wa' Dol nIvDaq matay'DI' maQap
We succeed together in a greater whole. TKW

meQtaHbogh qachDaq Suv qoH neH
Only a fool fights in a burning house. TKW

HurDaq tu'HomI'raHvetlh yIlan
Get that piece of junk out of here! KCD

bIghHa'Daq ghaHtaH qama''e'
The prisoner is in the prison. KGT

quSDaq bIba'
You sit in a chair. KGT
(IDIOM: What you said is quite obvious").

bIQ'a'Daq 'oHtaH 'etlh'e'
The sword is in the ocean. KGT
(IDIOM: something has ended, it is impossible to return to a prior condition)

mIvwIjDaq poghlIj vIcha'
I display your glove on my helmet KGT
(implies that the postponed matter is between the speaker and the addressee)

ghopDu'wIjDaq yInmeyraj vIlaj
I accept your lives into my hands. KGT

pa'vamDaq jIbIr
I am cold in this room. KGT

latlh HIvje'Daq 'Iw HIq bIr vIqang!
I pour the cold bloodwine into another glass! KGT

poSDaq nIHDaq je QamtaHvIS SuvwI'pu', chaH jojDaq yItnIS lopwI'
The initiate must pass through a gauntlet of warriors. S9

Hoch tlhIngan DujDaq So'wI' jomlu'
All Klingon vessels are equipped with a cloaking device... S33

ngongmeH wa' DujDaq nuHmey nISbe'bogh So'wI' jomlu'pu'
[A cloaking device which didn't disrupt weaponry was installed in one experimental ship.] S33 -

loghDaq lupDujHom qoDDaq bIlengtaHvIS, nIbuQbogh novpu' DaSuv
Battle menacing aliens in a shuttlecraft journey through space. STX

quwargh tach Qe' je qoDDaq Hov leng Soj DatIv
Enjoy Star Trek themed food and drink at Quark's Bar and Restaurant. STX

cha' choQmey naQ tu'lu' 'ej tep choQ bIngDaq lo' law' bID choQ tu'lu'
2 Full Decks and a Half Utility Deck under the Cargo Deck. KBOP

muDDaq 'eDSeHcha lulaQlu'bogh: jav
Atmospheric Take-Off/Landing Thrusters - 6. KBOP

telDaq wovmoHwI'mey
wing lights. KBOP

nISwI' talmey: cha' (telDaq lujomlu')
Disruptor Cannon - 2 (Wing Mounted) KBOP

nISwI': cha' chang'engmey (telDaq lujomlu', nItebHa' lubaHlu')
Disruptor - 2 Pairs (Wing Mounted, Fire Linked) KBOP

telDaq wovmoHwI'mey
Wing Lights. KBOP

'ay'vamDaq nuHmey tIQeq
Target weapons on this location. (ENT "Affliction")

meyrI'Daq 'oHtaH gho'e'
The circle is in the square. [qep'a' 2005]


lupDujHomDaq jIchegh
I return on the shuttle. (st.k 7/99)

lupDujHomDaq may'Duj vIchegh
I return to the battle cruiser on the shuttle. (st.k 7/99)

raSDaq jengva' vItatlh
I return the plate to the table. (st.k 7/99)

pa'Daq jItatlh'egh
I return to the room. (st.k 7/99)

yuQDaq vIleng
I travel to the planet. (HQ 12/1998)

yuQDaq jIleng
I roam (around/about) on the planet. (HQ 12/1998)

SoHDaq Sum raS
You are near the table. (HQ 12/1998)

ghobe'. jIHDaq Sum raS
No. The table is near me. (HQ 12/1998)


"When used with nouns with the locative suffix -Daq, the finger verbs mean point (with a specific finger) at or towards." (HQ 10.2:8)

qI'empeqDaq jIqan
(I think that) K'mpec is old
(lit. "I point at K'mpec with my little finger").  (HQ 10.2:11)

maghwI'Daq jISIq
I point at the traitor with my index finger.
I point out the traitor with my index finger. (HQ 10.2:11)

DungDaq qan
point the little finger upwards. (HQ 10.2:11)

ghIchwIjDaq jISIq
I point at my nose with my index finger. (HQ 10.2:11)

ghIchwIjDaq jISIq'egh
I pick my nose with my index finger. (HQ 10.2:11)

maghwI'Daq SIq naQjej
the spear points at the traitor.
He/she points at the traitor with his/her spear. (HQ 10.2:11)

maghwI'Daq SIq naQjejwIj
my spear points at the traitor.
I point at the traitor with my spear. (HQ 10.2:11)

maghwI'Daq SIqmeH naQjejwIj lo' SuvwI'
the warrior uses my spear to point at the traitor
the warrior points at the traitor with my spear. (HQ 10.2:11)

DungDaq Hom
point upwards with the second toe. (HQ 10.2:11)

nujDajDaq mar'egh ghu
the baby sucks its big toe. (HQ 10.2:11)

jaghwI'Daq jIHom
I use (my) second toe at my enemy
(IDIOM: I claim my enemy is unworthy or week) (HQ 10.2:11)



--
Voragh
Canon Master of the Klingons






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