tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Wed Dec 05 16:21:35 2007

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Re: usage of type-7 aspect suffix {-pu}

Robyn Stewart ( [KLI Member] [Hol po'wI']

Interesting. While there is slight ambiguity, in that the sword COULD 
have come from before Kayless was born, I get that the forging was 
completed during the life of Kayless, and not necessarily 
chenmoHlu'pu' boghDI' qeylIS. I understand how you hear it differently, though.

For that matter I see just as much if not more ambiguity in the 
original English. Descended from the time of Kayless doesn't 
necessarily mean that it did not exist before that time.

At 03:53 PM 12/5/2007, lab ghunchu'wI':
>ja' Qov:
> > At 04:40 AM 12/5/2007, lab ghunchu'wI':
> >
> > I see the grammar as being quite different. The canon first:
> >
> >> Skybox card S8: Bat'telh - Klingon Sword of Honor
> >> {...yIntaHvIS qeylIS'e' lIjlaHbe'bogh vay' batlh 'etlhvam
> >> chenmoHlu'pu'.}
> >> "...this sword of honor descends from the time of Kahless the
> >> Unforgettable."
> >
> > "While Kayless the Unforgettable was alive, this sword of honour had
> > already been made." Or with brutally literal translation, "While
> > lived Kayless whom someone could not forget, this sword of honour had
> > been caused to take form."  The -pu' is not on an action verb .
>I didn't interpret Doq's objection as having anything to do with the
>a distinction between verbs of action and verbs of quality.  It just
>looked like he had a problem with {V-taHvIS W X-pu'} implying that
>the X verb applied during the V action, while simultaneously stating
>the X verb's completion.
> >> There's only one reasonable way to interpret this.  It requires that
> >> the aspect suffix on the main verb be applied to the entire sentence,
> >> subordinate clauses and all.
> >
> > I don't really see it that way. At the time established by the action
> > (yIn) in the first subordinate clause, the action in the main verb
> > (chenmoH) was complete. It seems a very normal use of -pu'.
>It would be perfectly normal and uncontroversial if the idea had been
>translated thus:  "This sword of honor descends from BEFORE the time
>of Kahless the Unforgettable."  However, that would deny the myth
>that the original batlh 'etlh was forged by Kahless himself.  We are
>compelled to infer that the sword was made during his life, which is
>contrary to your otherwise quite appropriate translation.
>-- ghunchu'wI'

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