tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Sat May 15 04:52:00 2004

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Re: {'e'}

David Trimboli ([email protected]) [KLI Member] [Hol po'wI']

> ><'e' vItlhobbe'qu' jIH. 'e' tlhob lay'tel SIvten.
> >I didn't ask that. Steven did.>
>
> jangpu' lay'tel SIvten:
> >is each of these two uses of {'e'} correct?
> >the pronoun {'e'} refers to the previous sentence, even if it was used by
> >someone else.  i think it's perfectly fine in the first sentence above.
in
> >the second sentence {'e'} should refer to the sentence before it, but in
> >fact refers to the same one as the previous {'e'}, i.e. two sentences
> >before it.  i think {'oH} (or no pronoun at all) should have been used in
> >the second sentence.

I don't think there's any problem using {'e'} when it's used as an object
and it's clear what sentence it refers to.  One needn't take "previous
sentence" quite so literally.

From: "QeS lagh" <[email protected]>
> 2) I don't think that {'e' tlhob X} is possible when referring to one of
> your own sentences. To say "He asked where the toilet is" you would say
> {tlhob. <nuqDaq 'oH puchpa''e'> jatlh.} You can {tlhob} a person - for
> instance, {mutlhob Qanqor} "Krankor asked me" (probably better is "Krankor
> asked a question of me") - but I am pretty sure you can't {tlhob} a
sentence
> unless it's someone else's, in which case you *must* use {'e'} so they
know
> what you're talking about.

I don't see any reason to distinguish between my own sentences and someone
else's.

One problem here is that {ghel} is the correct verb for asking questions
(like {nuqDaq 'oH puchpa''e'}).  {tlhob} is used for making requests.
Neither word is a verb of saying, so the sentence that uses these verbs must
simply be talking about asking or requesting.  If there's any quotation to
be made, add a separate {jatlh} or {ja'} sentence, plus quotation.

mughel; jatlh nuqDaq 'oH puchpa''e'.
He asked me a question.  He said, "Where is the bathroom?"
He asked me where the bathroom is.

Do vIghurmoH 'e' tlhob Duy'a'.
The ambassador asked me to increase speed.

Duj vImej 'e' ra' HoD.  jatlh naDevvo' yIghoS!
The captain ordered me to leave the ship.  He said, "Get out of here!"


> (Have a look at ST:VI. Azetbur distinctly says at
> one point {'e' neHbe' vavwI'}, but {neH} normally doesn't take {'e'}.)

It's likely that the {'e'} was used there because without it, {neHbe' vavoy}
"Daddy didn't want" doesn't complete the thought.  Another reason not to
take {'e'} too stringently.

> This
> is true for all other verbs involving actions of speaking AFAIK: {jang},
> {jach}, {ghel}, {jat}... you get the picture.

The only true verbs of speaking are {jatlh} and {ja'}.  The rest are simply
verbs.

> I agree that {tlhob lay'tel SIvten} would work, but not in the way that
you
> think it does. {tlhob lay'tel SIvten} would be subject-only, translated by
> "Steven asked". The null prefix on {tlhob} is [3rd-subject], not
> [3rd-subject plus 3rd-object]. So {'e' vItlhobbe'qu' jIH. tlhob lay'tel
> SIvten} would be "I did not ask that. Steven asked."

This would also work, because one may elide a repeated pronoun in the same
position (and {'e'} is a pronoun).

SuStel
Stardate 4370.9

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