tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Wed Jan 28 12:57:06 2004

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Re: KLBC -meH

Steven Boozer ([email protected]) [KLI Member] 

Dar'Qang:
> > If OTOH one uses the -meH phrase to modify the verb, that *does*
> > capture the meaning:  "I for-the-purpose-of-learning-the-style-read the
> > book."  I like this, the way it modifies the action.  But the syntax
> > doesn't seem to work: <paq *Doch vIghojmeH vIlaD>.  The two nouns are
> > placed together, creating a confusing ambiguity.

ngabwI':
>{bIlugh} But there's no ambiguity here. {paq *Doch vIghojmeH, vIlaD} means
>only "I order to learn the book's author's style, I read it."

Dar'Qang:
> > If one were to write <*Doch vIghojmeH paq vIlaD>, that isn't the
> > the original meaning. I would interpret it as "I read the
> > for-the-purpose-of-learning-the-style-book."  This suggests
> > that the topic of the book is the author's style.

ngabwI':
>{jIQoch} The sentence above says nothing about the topic of the book, only
>the purpose for which it is being read.

I'm not sure I understand Dar'Qang's point either, but I think s/he is 
confusing {-meH} purpose clauses with {-bogh} relative clauses.

Here's a relative clause:

   qonwI' *Doch ghojmoHbogh paq vIlaD
   I read the book which teaches the author's style.
   (or)
   I read the author's style which the book teaches.

Because of the nature of {-bogh} clauses this last sentence is ambiguous 
and has two grammatically possible translations, however unlikely the 
second one may be.  If the context is unclear or you're afraid that your 
reader will lose track of what you're discussing, you can mark the relevant 
object with {-'e'} to disambiguate:

   qonwI' *Doch ghojmoHbogh paq'e' vIlaD
   I read the book which teaches the author's style.

   qonwI' *Doch'e' ghojmoHbogh paq vIlaD
   I read the author's style which the book teaches.

Compare those with purpose clauses:

   qonwI' *Doch vIghojmeH paq vIlaD
   I read the book in order to learn the author's style.
   In order to learn the author's style, I read the book.

   paq vIlaDmeH qonwI' *Doch vIghoj
   I learn the author's style in order to read the book.
   In order to read the book, I learn the author's style.

Although you can vary the English translation depending on where you put 
the subordinate clause, there is no ambiguity in the Klingon.  If, though, 
you feel that you're stringing too many words together, don't be afraid to 
use a comma after the {-meH}:

   qonwI'vam *Doch motlhbe'qu' vIghojmeH, paqDaj chu' vIlaD.
   I read his new book in order to learn this author's very unusual style.
   To learn this author's very unusual style, I read his new book.

Punctuation can be an ally!  (To put it in Klingon terms.)

>Some canon that may help to illustrate, off the top of my head:
>
>{jagh DajeymeH, nIteb yISuvrup} "To defeat the enemy, be ready to fight 
>alone." PK
>{qa' wIje'meH, maSuv} "We fight to enrich the spirit" TKW, pg 7
>{yIn DayajmeH, 'oy' yISIQ} "To understand life, endure pain" TKW, pg 43.
>{bIQapqu'meH, tar DaSop 'e' DatIvnIS} "To really succeed, you must enjoy 
>eating poison" TKW, pg 73
>{HIq DaSammeH, tach yI'el!} "To find ale, go into a bar." TKW, pg 181.

I can give you many more canon examples of {-bogh} and {-meH} clauses to 
study if you want.



-- 
Voragh
Ca'Non Master of the Klingons

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