tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Wed Nov 05 17:45:48 2003

Back to archive top level

To this year's listing

[Date Prev][Date Next][Thread Prev][Thread Next]

Re: {rutlh} cha'DIch

Steven Boozer ([email protected]) [KLI Member] 

Voragh:
> >That's not quite right.  While the pronoun {'oH} has a specific noun as
> >antecedent (e.g. {mu'}, {pong}, {ngoDvam}, etc.),

Quvar:
>That's what I was think about, because I think that what was written first 
>{'ach nuqvo', chay' ghap DaSov'a'?} sounds like in english roughly 
>translated: "wherefrom do you know that fact?"

Except that the noun "fact" {ngoD} wasn't actually mentioned, merely inferred.

>Okay, I agree with everything you've said, but I still think there is a 
>difference here:

> >SIvten's question can now be re-written:
> >
> >   {rutlh} 'oH <<wheel>>'e' 'e' vIHarbe' ...  'ach chay' 'e' DaSov?
> >   I didn't believe that "wheel" is {rutlh}... But how did you know that?
>
>This is "How did you know that I didn't believe that "wheel" is {rutlh}?"
>But not "How did you know that "wheel" is {rutlh}?"
>(At least to me. Other opinions around?)

We're having problems with sentence0as-objects.  There are two SAOs here, 
one inside the other:

   [<{rutlh} 'oH "wheel"'e'> 'e' vIHarbe'] 'e' chay' DaSov?
   "How did you know that [I didn't believe that <"wheel" is {rutlh}">].

[assuming that you shift {'e'} to the left of the question word like Okrand 
shifted the adverbial {reH} in

   DuraS tuq tlhIngan yejquv patlh luDub 'e' reH lunIDtaH DuraS be'nI'pu'
    lurSa' be'etor je.
   The sisters of  the House of Duras, Lursa and B'Etor, are constantly
    seeking a higher standing for the House of Duras within the Klingon
    High Council. S26

People find this bizarre, but I think the solution - assuming that it's not 
an error or sub-standard speech! - is that {'e'}, in addition to being a 
pronoun, also acts as a conjunction separating the two clauses of an SAO 
construction and warning the listener of that so s/he doesn't get 
confused.  (Well, so the *Klingon* listener doesn't get confused, that 
is.  <g>)  In effect, {'e'} performs the same role as Type 9 suffixes which 
mark the dependent clause in a complex sentence.]

So, after hearing:

   {rutlh} 'oH <<wheel>>'e' 'e' vIHarbe'
   I didn't believe that "wheel" is {rutlh}.

if you say {chay' 'oH DaSov?} "How do you know it", {'oH} has to refer to 
one of the two actual nouns in the previous sentence:  "wheel" or {rutlh}.

>As you said,
>
> >the pronoun {'e'} refers to the previous idea or sentence as a whole
>
>I see the idea/sentence "didn't believe that ... wheel" as a whole.

Exactly.

> > - whether it's in the same sentence, a previous sentence or even if
> >it's a sentence said by someone else - as long is the context is clear.
>
>I think the context was not clear enough, at least to me. ;-)
>
>When I keep thinking about it, I believe the english is also ambiguous:
>
> >  I didn't believe that "wheel" is {rutlh}... But how did you know that?

You're right, it is.  The English pronoun "that" could theoretically refer 
to either noun or the previous clause as a whole.  (The difference in 
actual meaning is so trivial that most English speakers probably won't even 
notice a possible ambiguity.)  Klingon however has to be more 
specific:  {'oH} refers only to nouns, {'e'} only to sentences/clauses.

How does this work in German?



-- 
Voragh
Ca'Non Master of the Klingons

Back to archive top level