tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Wed Feb 12 12:02:56 2003
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Re: KLBC:{ben}
From: <[email protected]>
> > /-pu'/ indicates a completed action, NOT necessarily one that occurred
> > prior to the time context, though that is usually the case.
>
> Huh? -pu' means "completed". To be completed, it needs to have already
> occured. It doesn't have to occur necessarily prior to when the statement
is
> made, but by definition it must be prior to the time context.
>
> V-choH, V-(lI'/taH), V-be'choH, V-pu'
Since Klingon "time context" is not part of the verb, it's possible that a
verb can begin and end all within the context. There's another example from
canon:
HovpoH Hut vagh cha' wa' vI' jav Dujvam 'aghlu'pu'.
The ship was launched on stardate 9521.6. (SkyBox S33)
Now, you CAN argue that Marc Okrand goofed and shouldn't have used /-pu'/,
but this is precisely what I said about /boghpu'/ . . . .
Here's another example:
jIlengtaHvIS yaS vIngu'
I identified the officer while I was traveling.
Here, /jIlengtaHvIS/ "while I was traveling" is the time context. Notice
what TKD 4.2.7 says: "The absence of a Type 7 suffix usually means that the
action is not completed and is not continuous . . . ."
Thus, there is no statement of completion in the above sentence. I'm
willing to agree that it needn't be an incomplete action; rather, the
completeness (and continuity) of the action is unstated.
What if I want to say that I completed identifying an officer while I was
traveling, and I don't want to imply that it was done absolutely correctly?
jIlengtaHvIS yaS vIngu'pu'
While I was traveling, I completed the action of identifying the officer.
This sentence COULD mean that I identified the officer prior to the
beginning of my travels, but according to TKD it ALSO means what I said it
means.
And consider also some canon statements with perfective suffixes or
constructions:
qa'vam De' vIje' rIntaH
I have purchased the Genesis data.
vaj Daleghpu'
Then you have seen it.
These statements were uttered without any reference to time. But the time
doesn't matter: what matters is whether the action is a completed one.
These people already knew what they were talking about. But without a
stated time context, the perfective suffixes (or constructions) aren't
talking about "completed relative to the time context." They're just
talking about being completed.
Klingon relies heavily on the listener using common sense to disambiguate.
I find it hard to believe that it would stoop to using /X ben jIboghpu' --
because at X ben I had already been born/. I find a much more reasonable
explanation to be /X ben jIboghpu' -- because I'm talking about my being
born being completed at X ben/.
The perfective suffixes referring to a time before the current time context
is an explanatory device devised by list members to more easily explain the
use of those suffixes-but it's not *quite* the whole story. Sticking purely
to that description smacks strongly of tense to me.
SuStel
Stardate 3117.7