tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Sun Apr 20 01:57:40 2003
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Re: qatlh vay' vInuQ :)
On Fri, 18 Apr 2003, David Trimboli wrote:
> From: "...Paul" <[email protected]>
> > > > rut QubchoHmoHchu'meH vay' meq qaDlu'. wIqaDbe'chugh Sovmaj
> > > > wI'ItlhmoHbe'.
> > >
> > > pIm meq qaDwI', QochwI' je.
> >
> > "The challenger of the logic and the dissenter are different."
> >
> > qar'a'?
>
> Right. Now translate it into comfortable English. You have a tendency-I'm
> not sure if it's intentional-to translate a person's Klingon into the least
> elegant, but still accurate, English form you can find. This puts me on the
> defensive. Perhaps it's not a fair reaction on my part, but maybe it's
> better to leave out the English altogether and just answer in Klingon. You
> don't seem to have any trouble understanding what I said.
You don't put any English translations into your messages, so you leave
them as a challenge to translate. It's sometimes difficult to know if
you've correctly conveyed your sentiments, or if you've made a subtle
error. That's why I tend to translate your words into the "least
elegant" translation -- because then there's no doubt as to the parts of
the grammar, both English and Klingon. This is also why I try to
translate my own Klingon in my messages -- so that if I have incorrectly
conveyed an idea, people can catch my mistake and know that it was a
mistake.
> A better translation would be "A logic challenger and a dissenter are
> different." Since Klingon doesn't use articles, you need to choose the best
> article when translating into English.
My initial reading, I thought you might have been intending something like
"A challenger's reasons and a dissenter's reasons are different" -- ie.
One offers a contrary opinion to challenge, the other to complain. If
that was the case, then your Klingon translation would not have been
correct.
> For a detailed exercise and analysis in Klingon-to-English translation, see
> /HolQeD/ Vol. 4, No. 4, pp. 2-5; Vol. 5, No. 1, pp. 2-8; Vol. 5, No. 3, pp.
> 2-9.
I do not own these volumes. I will perhaps buy up the back issues at a
later date, but right now my money is pretty well focused on remodelling a
condo I just bought.
> > One thing I never liked about Klingon was that it was difficult to tell
> > between a noun-noun construction and a dual-noun conjunction. The comma
> > helps, obviously.
>
> yISIQ. 'ej jatlhqu'lu'DI' ngeD mu'tlhegh poj.
"Deal with it. And as soon as one really speaks, sentence analysis will
be easy." qar'a'?
> > DaH juHwIj chu' vIDIjchoHnIS...
>
> Unless you're using a /rItlh naQ/ (KGT pp. 80-81), you probably want
> /nguvmoH/ instead of /DIj/. And watch that verb suffix ordering.
Doh! Double Doh! I need to add 'be painted' to the list of synonyms for
/nguv/ so I can find it next time. :)
vItlu'pu' net SovlaHbe' vIt Sovbe'lu'chugh. tera'nganvaD Damughchugh
tlhIngan DajatlhDI' vaj bIlugh 'e' wISovbej. mISvaD bISuD Damughbe'chugh.
"One cannot know if one is telling the truth if one does not know the
truth. If you translate for Terrans when you speak in Klingon, then we
will know for certain that you are correct. You risk confusion if you do
not translate it."
The other reason I translate my own stuff into "more elegant English" is
because I know that sometimes what seems to be the right way to translate
something on the surface is not always correct. The original statement
was a perfect example -- a sentence that was pretty much legal, but had
a greatly different translation when DloraH read it than what you intended
-- however, DloraH would not have thought there was a problem with the
sentence, because there was no way for him to know what you really meant.
pIj jImuj 'e' vISov. vaj HochvaD jInub. lughbejbe' mu'tlheghwIj 'ej
lughbejbe' mughta'ghachwIj je. laHwIj vIDubmeH Hol'e' Saja'chuqmoH..
"I know I'm often wrong. So, I'm suspicious of everything. My sentences
are not certain to be correct and my translations aren't certain to be
correct either. I start discussions of the language itself to improve
my abilities." (Okay, I'm really stretching thin on /Saja'chuqmoH/ -- how
would you say "I discuss the language"?)
...Paul
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