tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Fri Nov 01 16:02:15 2002

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Hop/Sum (was: RE: 'ISqu' (KLBC probably needed..))

> > >Olomouc Hopbe' Sosnowiec.
> > >Sosnowiec isn't far away from Olomouc.
> >
> > Since no one else has pointed this out:
> > Shouldn't this be <OlomoucDaq Hopbe' Sosnowiec>.
> ...
> I have that article on my computer at home.  I suppose I should
> bring it to work someday.

Now that I'm home...

HolQeD Dec 98
WM:   Two other verbs that are interesting in terms of whether you would
      use vI- or jI- are Sum and Hop.  Like raS vISum or raS vIHop.

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MO:   Okay.  This opens up a whole new issue.  You see, there's this thing
      called "deixis."  This is the idea that an utterance is made at a
      specific time and place, and certain words or grammatical elements
      are interpreted correctly only by reference to that time and place.
      So the same word may refer to a different real-world thing
      depending on who's speaking, where, when, and so on.  Like in the
      statement "I am here," where is "here?"  It has to do with where you
      are when you make the statement.  And who is "I?"  "I" is Marc if I
      say it; it's Will if you do.

WM:   And when somebody writes that on a blackboard and then walks
      away.  It was true when it was written, but later...

MO:   Yes.  It's like the sign in a store window that says "Back in one
      hour."  If there's no indication of when the sign was put up, how do
      you know how long to wait?  It's the same in regular conversation.
      You don't speak in a vacuum.  There are elements in the speech
      situation to let us interpret utterances correctly.  Usually, anyway.

MO:   Using the verbs Sum and Hop involves this concept.

WM:   So I could not say raSvam vISum to say, "I am near the table."

MO:   No.  You'd just say Sum raS.  The verb Sum implies that the speaker
      is the one the subject is near at the time of speaking.

                       Hop jabwI'.
               The waiter is far from me right now.

WM:   Well, that resolves the conflict otherwise created if they could take
      objects.  It keeps them stative, so you can say, HIvje' Sum yItlhap.

MO:   Yes.

WM:   Otherwise, they'd be the only verbs we'd sometimes use as
      adjectives and other times use transitively.

MO:   Take an object.  Yes.

WM:   So, could that deictic anchor be shifted by using an indirect object?
      Like if I wanted to say, "You are near the table," could I say SoHvaD
      Sum raS?

MO:   No.  You'd use -Daq: SoHDaq Sum raS.  This throws the orientation
      away from the speaker (unmarked, unstated) and to the listener
      (marked, stated: "at you, where you are").  But you don't always
      need to state this overtly.  Context is critical.  For example:

            qagh largh SuvwI' ghung. Sum qagh 'e' Sov.
               The hungry warrior smells the gagh.
               He/she knows the gagh is nearby.

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      The only interpretation of this (absent other information) is that the
      warrior knows the gagh is near the warrior, not the warrior knows
      the gagh is near the speaker of the sentences.  If context isn't
      you can clarify:

      Question:            Sum'a' raS?
            Is the table near (me)? (Am I near the table?)

      Answer:            HIja'.  Sum raS.
                 Yes.  The table is near (you).

      Answer:         ghobe'.  jIHDaq Sum raS.
                  No.  The table is near me.

WM:   And could I say maSumchuq?

MO:   No.  You'd just say bISum or SuSum.  If you haven't, in the course of
      the conversation, set things up otherwise, it's assumed that the
      event being talked about is taking place where the speaker is.  In
      jISum alone probably would make no everyday sense to a Klingon.
      "I am near me."  But it does have an idiomatic philosophical sense,
      something like "I'm in touch with my inner self" (but in a Klingon
      sort of way, of course).

For those of you that don't have this HolQeD, shame on you!  Lawrence just
had a month long sale.  Everyone should have every issue.

DloraH, 'utlh

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