tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Tue Mar 05 09:17:07 2002
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Re: jIH vIchuHlu' - Words mentioned earlier but not in the New Words list?
- From: [email protected]
- Subject: Re: jIH vIchuHlu' - Words mentioned earlier but not in the New Words list?
- Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 14:17:06 GMT
> I fully accept it is your call and I can especially see what you meant about
> names... Maybe my mistake was including the email I did... Perhaps the
> question would have better been supported If I'd specified particular words
> I'd looked up.
The more specific you are, the less confusing you'll be. Even in this message,
you have not been specific enough for me to have a clue about what you really
want. You talk about words you think ought to be in the New Words List, then
include an Email that contains words that are mostly in TKD addendum or KGT,
plus a couple proper names for something nobody would understand unless they
read the novel the words appear in. If they read the novel, they know what the
words mean and they don't need them in the New Words List. If they don't read
the novel, having them in the New Words List won't help anybody understand what
they mean, so they aren't really good choices for the New Words List.
So, I explain that, and yet you still seem to be saying that your question has
not been answered. So, ask your question clearly and we'll do our best to
answer it more to your satisfaction.
> I did say that attached email was just an example of those
> previously discussed. I included the email purely to demonstrate that the
> discussion wasn't new and people wouldn't get all excited about it for no
> reason.. After checking my list archives on the subject I was still left
> with what I considered a valid question, so I asked it.
It sounded like your question was, "Why don't these words appear in the New
Words List?" I think I answered that question. So, what exactly is your
question?
> The purpose of my question to the list was, is the source considered canon
> because it was vetted by MO.. Not, what has anybody done wrong.
Anything Okrand explicitly approves in a verifiable form is canon. We got a
couple of nouns out of the novel "Sarek"; mostly for animals we know little
about, so it's not like the words pop up in daily conversation, but they did
get added to the list. Meanwhile, the novel that has you so enthused here seems
to offer a couple planet names. Did I miss anything?
> We are
> often told that if we have the books and the new word list we will have all
> canon words (You restate this yourself in your reply to my general query)...
> It was because I value the list you maintain that leant me to question the
> validity of the source material in question.. That question remains
> unanswered.
The question here is: "Is every proper name considered to be a word?" My answer
is, "No." Pick up any English dictionary and try to look up every name for
every person you know. Do you find all the names there? No. Then look up every
city, state and country name you know. Do you find them? No. That's not what
dictionaries are for.
If you'd like to make a list of canon Klingon proper names, I welcome you to do
so. I'm sure Lawrence would be happy to set up a forum for you to show them,
similar to the "Extended Corpus Project", or maybe you'd like to just deal with
the Extended Corpus Project directly. I don't mean to stop anyone from
collecting proper names, Klingonaase or anything else that pleases them. I just
don't want to pad the word list I maintain with uncommon Proper Names for
places and people.
> Re the word I had looked up, perhaps I should have further specified that
> the words I didn't have any record of that I had looked up. But the question
> is still valid. Is the source considered canon by the KLI.
You still have not stated your "word". I'm apparently supposed to pick it out
myself from this earlier Email that includes a lot of words, most of which are
in the Addendum or KGT. Be direct and you'll get a more direct answer.
What's wrong with actually asking your question, directly, simply and without a
lot of distracting wrapping?
Will
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <[email protected]>
>
>
> > > It might seem a bit late in the day but I have recently just been given
> > > "Diplomatic Implausibility" by Keith R.A. DeCandido.
> > >
> > > I searched back on this list to find many emails referring to words
> listed
> > > in the glossary like this one below.. Many say the spelling was provided
> by
> > > Marc Okrand in fact the acknowledgements state that he helped and indeed
> > > vetted the glossary.. Doesn't this then make the words canon? if so
> > > shouldn't they be listed in the New Words list at
> > > /tlh/newwords.html ?
> >
> > That list does not include word in TKD or KGT. Beyond that, it is my
> judgement
> > call as to whether or not to include them. For the most part, I take all
> > verifiable source words, with the occasional exception of proper names,
> for the
> > same reason regular dictionaries inconsistently include proper names. It
> is the
> > judgement call of the editor in any dictionary, lest it become a huge list
> of
> > names instead of a reference book of words.
> >
> > If a proper name is something likely to be commonly used by the population
> the
> > dictionary is intended for, sometimes that name will appear in the
> dictionary.
> > Otherwise, it is not. Years ago, I struggled with these decisions. Now, I
> care
> > less and the decision is easier to make. It's arbitrary, and it is my
> call. If
> > a concerned group thought I made a wrong call, they could contact me about
> it
> > and I'll reconsider it. Otherwise, I'm okay with my judgements. SOMEBODY'S
> got
> > to do it. Why not me?
> >
> > > Of those I've searched for I've not
> > > found any. This made me wonder if they can be used? If none of the
> above
> > > shouldn't the words at least appear in the Extended Corpus Project?
> >
> > Looking quickly at the list, I see words that exist in TKD or KGT. I'll
> address
> > each below.
> >
> > > qe'San
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Steven Boozer" <[email protected]>
> > > To: <[email protected]>
> > > Sent: Friday, July 06, 2001 9:14 PM
> > > Subject: Re: Planet names
> > >
> > >
> > > > ro'Han asked:
> > > >
> > > > : Can someone please enlighten me as to which of these planets are
> Klingon
> > > > : colonies, and which are not?
> > > >
> > > > AFAIK, the Klingon colony/subject worlds are:
> > > >
> > > > QI'tomer Khitomer
> >
> > TKD addendum.
> >
> > > > nImbuS wej Nimbus III
> >
> > TKD addendum
> >
> > > > rura' pente' Rura Penthe
> >
> > TKD addendum
> >
> > > > Klingon planets whose spellings were provided by Okrand for Keith R.A.
> > > > DeCandido's novel _Diplomatic Implausibility_ include:
> > > >
> > > > HuDyuQ "a mountainous Klingon planet"
> >
> > This is a fairly simple compound noun. Maybe it is a proper name. Maybe
> not. I
> > can't tell from this context. Until I understand what this word is
> supposed to
> > mean, I don't feel like entering it into the list.
> >
> > > > tay'ghoqor Ty'Gokor
> >
> > This is a proper name I've never seen in any other source. I don't feel a
> need
> > to put it in the New Words List.
> >
> > > > Possible Klingon colony worlds are:
> > > >
> > > > toqvIr Tokviria (planet?) KGT
> >
> > Again, this is a proper name, and not one in sufficiently common usage
> that I
> > felt compelled to put it in the list.
> >
> > Let me be clear here:
> >
> > The New Words List is not intended to be a collection place for people who
> > collect words as if they were trading cards for a game. It is a tool for
> > Klingon speakers who want the official, functional vocabulary for the
> language.
> > Combine it with TKD and KGT, and you get the full list of words people can
> use
> > to express ideas. That does not need to include every proper name that has
> ever
> > been used in canon.
> >
> > There is a second word list that collects this sort of thing, including
> words
> > that have nothing to do with Okrand's language. I don't maintain that
> list.
> >
> > The words I've chosen to not include above are words that you couldn't use
> to
> > most Klingon speakers without having to explain to them what you were
> talking
> > about, so why put them in a dictionary?
> >
> > > > SermanyuQ Sherman's Planet
> >
> > That's in TKD.
> >
> > > > I imagine, though, that the issue of Sherman's Planet has long been
> > > settled by
> > > > the 24th century! Still, we don't absolutely know to whom the
> Organians
> > > > finally awarded the planet. (Klingon agent Arne Darvon's poisoning of
> the
> > > > quadrotricale on Deep Space Station K7 may not have decided the matter
> in
> > > favor
> > > > of the Federation.)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Voragh
> > > > Ca'Non Master of the Klingons
> >
> > Will
> >
>