tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Tue Jan 22 14:36:13 2002

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Re: Klingonase vs. tlhIngan Hol

The word "canon" is spelled "c-a-n-o-n" not "cannon". The former is something 
you accept as from a reliable authority. The latter is a gun, typically too 
large to carry without mechanical assistance.

Anything written or spoken by Dr. Marc Okrand is canon. He invented the 
language we call tlhIngan Hol. Anything else is not canon.

Others will argue that these other things are "Paramount Canon", but the simple 
truth is, tlhIngan Hol as presented by Marc Okrand is a language that can be 
used to express ideas pretty much like any "natural" language. Everything else 
from Paramount under the name Klingonaase or anything else fails the simple 
requirement that a person can express ideas using these sounds or 
written "words".

None of this "Paramount Hol" has even the simplest rules of grammar. I've never 
seen any words in Paramount Hol that have any part of speech other than "noun", 
unless you want a separate category for "proper noun". If you have no grammar, 
you have no expression of ideas. These are just "words" made up by authors who 
thought it would be cool to throw in some "Klingonaase", and hey, nobody really 
speaks the language anyway except some real losers with no life, so nobody who 
counts will be offended if we just make stuff up, right?

So, as an author, I can just say, "S'nirt" and it means "primary lateral 
holographic dorsal induction alignment fuser array". Then, some geek will 
catalog it and it becomes "canon", right next to "K'pqgwbvpa, which is, of 
course, the Quorvakian wartfrog considered to be a delicacy on the third moon 
of Marzak II.


tlhIngan Hol is an artificial language created for a fictitious race of aliens. 
Klingonaase is a fictitious language about which we know nothing except that 
nobody understands it except fictitious characters, and the only thing they 
reveal to us are nouns tossed into English sentences. You can never learn to  
speak Klingonaase. Nobody can. Even the guy who invented the word can't speak 
it. He just makes up words when he needs them.

Meanwhile, I can speak tlhIngan Hol. You can, too, if you avoid the distraction 
of Klingonaase and study canon provided by Marc Okrand and discussed here on 
this list.

Marc Okrand has written books, so it is not true that things written in books 
are not canon. The Klingon used in the movies was usually written by Marc 
Okrand and he coached the actors on how to say it, so that is canon (even if 
sometimes the actors didn't do a very good job of it). Okrand has also 
participated in two audiotapes and a CD. All these are canon.

None of the TV shows have ever consulted Okrand, and whoever comes up with what 
they use is not knowledgable about the language. Most of the novels are 
similarly ignorant of tlhIngan Hol, though the novel "Sarek" does have a few 
words in it that the author got from Okrand, even though she is clueless about 
how to actually use the words in a sentence.

I hope this clarifies things, despite the obvious influence of my opinion.

Oh, and one more thing: If you want to make up your own Klingonaase words, just 
make sure to use a harsh or explosive opening consonant, like "K" or "P" or "B" 
or "T" and then make the second letter an apostrophe. It doesn't matter what 
comes after that, but those first two letters are really important. Nobody can 
pronounce it anyway, but just to seem authentic, make it two syllables, and 
make it a noun.


> But I hav heard Worf use Klingoneese as the word 4 the
> Klingon language.  If so, why is this a point of
> contention.  All we are saying is the same thing 4 the
> same word. Now if we want to be technical, correct me
> if I'm wrong, but anything written in books is
> considered non-cannon.  Anything produced on t.v. or
> in the movies is considered cannon.  If the former is
> correct, then anything written by Ford would be
> non-cannon.  To be exact so is the Klingon Dictionary.
>  As someone pointed out earlier, some of the other
> shows, since ST3 have strayed away from the Klingon
> Dictionary.  So this would seem to prove my theory. 
> Please correct me if I'm wrong.
> --- malqa <> wrote:
> > Most of the fans from Klingon trek clubs that I have
> > met, only accept
> > Ford's book and the *info* therein, as the klingon
> > language/culture.
> > Whenever I've pointed out or tried to teach them the
> > language from TKD,etc
> > they were not in the least interested. To me, only
> > Okrand is canon
> > material,not one paperback book by some obscure Trek
> > author. These
> > followers still continue to use the Honorifics,name
> > formation,etc even
> > though it hasn't been written that way in years in
> > 'canon' Trek.
> > The Final Reflection vIlajbe'
> > or should that be
> > The Final Reflection vIHarbe'
> > 
> > Lt.Commander Maud "malqa" Freifelder
> > Chief Security Officer USS Triumph NCC-26228
> > "Triumph Against All Odds"
> > STARFLEET/Region 2
> >
> > 
> > On Sun, 20 Jan 2002, Robyn Stewart wrote:
> > 
> > >  > Doesn't Klingonase/Klingoneese pre-date
> > tlhIngan Hol, the language
> > > invented
> > >  > by Marc Okrand?
> > >
> > > Just barely.
> > >
> > > John M. Ford's first Klingon novel, The Final
> > Reflection was published May
> > > 1984, and tlhIngan Hol was created for Star Trek
> > III, which premiered June
> > > 1st 1984.  The first edition of TKD wasn't
> > available to fans until 1985,
> > > however.
> > >
> > >  > From my understanding of this, Klingoneese
> > words were
> > >  > introduced in the books by John Ford. Some of
> > these words were adopted by
> > >  > 'gamers' and these are still used by KAG for
> > honorifics and ranks. Isn't
> > > this
> > >  > where the K'whatever names came from? Please
> > correct me, as it is all very
> > >  > confusing.
> > >
> > > You have it exactly right.  With only a handful of
> > words and phrases, Ford
> > > created the illusion of a language.  Mostly the
> > vocabulary was honorifics,
> > > ranks, K'names and ritual expressions.  Most
> > experienced Klingonists
> > > recognize Fordisms, and they are held in higher
> > regard than ParHol.  There
> > > are a few in Hamlet, even.   I consider
> > Klingonaase to be another language
> > > of the Empire.
> > >
> > >  > > Klingoneese is how most refer to the
> > "dialect" created by John Ford.
> > > ta' Hol
> > >  > > refers to what Okrand gives us. tlhIngan Hol
> > is how you refer to the
> > > Klingon
> > >  > > language, any dialect.
> > >
> > > It's spelled Klingonaase, but even Ford's Klingons
> > comment on the fact that
> > > DIvI' Hol speakers keep saying -eese.
> > >
> > > And I just found this.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > >
> > > Not terribly relevant, just poor Marc getting
> > spammed online, and he called
> > > some of us "amazing."  I didn't remember seeing it
> > before.
> > >
> > >
> > 
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