tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Thu Oct 04 11:31:43 2001
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RE: Enterprise Time line
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Qor'etlh valwI'na' [mailto:[email protected]]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2001 1:27 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Enterprise Time line
>
>
> charghwI' 'utlh jatlh:
> > This seems to be a case of one using one's teeth to detach a mass
> with an
> > inappropriate size and texture to suit the function of masticating.
> Let's
> > look to the English and try again.
>
> jIHagh 'ej bIlugh.
>
> > The television shows never have spoken ta' Hol. Okrand has had to
> create
> > words to match what they said more times than they have bothered to
> use the
> > 2,200+ words that he had already created.
>
> Upon further investigation of all of my extensive resources,
bIDoj 'e' vIHarnIS?
> Intelligence reveals that there WAS an Emperor at this time, and that
> there could not only have been another dialect in fashion, but that
> the Empire may have used an entirely different language from the
> Homeworld.
My whole point is that for ST3 and the later movies, Okrand actually applied
his experience as a linguist in creating a functional language that managed
to:
1. Express a remarkable range of meaning
2. Given his limited time to develop it, be strange enough to be believably
alien
3. Sound gutteral (like the script told him to)
4. Include all the vocabulary in ST1 and explain the grammar
5. Reflect the culture of a fictional race
For the TV shows, the writers, directors and actors apply no linguistic
experience or principals and make no effort to have what they proport to be
Klingon actually mean anything except "I'm going to make these sounds and
pretend like it means what the subtitle says it means." All the fun stuff
about Okrand's language is missing from Paramount Holqoq.
> I won't send the proof, since that seems to be off topic,
Certainly, it couldn't be more off topic than the message you sent telling
us that you won't send the evidence because that would be off topic.
> even though
> IT DIRECTLY AFFECTS THE LANGUAGE.
You can usually tell a person's argument is weak WHEN THEY RESORT TO TYPING
WHOLE SENTENCES IN UPPERCASE.
> > jISaHbe'. When a movie comes out and Okrand is consulted, I watch
> the movie
> > and I buy the video. In all other circumstances, Dojbe'mo'
> Holqoqchaj jISaHbe'.
>
> nuq, vISaH?
> You most certainly have that backwards, at least what has proven true
> in the historical perspective:
> TKD and the language came out AFTER the movie(s),
Okrand developed the language for the third movie. The only examples of
anyone pretending to speak Klingon before that were the words spoken at the
beginning of the first movie, which Okrand later incorporated into the
language, and the novel-based "Klinzai" (I'm probably misspelling it),
which, while being somewhat cool, is not really a language and lacks the
numbered cool features described earlier in this message.
> and we will have to
> wait years for any 'official' confirmation of this recent 'Canon'
> revelation, as we did KGT after the other series.
Most of KGT had nothing to do with the other series. If anything, Okrand was
just fulfilling his promise to later come up with the encyclopedia to
describe areas of vocabulary not addressed in TKD. The promise was actually
a joke, but the language surprised him by remaining popular long enough for
him to actually keep the promise.
> IF we get one at all.
yItlhuHQo'Qo'. {{:)>
> On the other hand, I'm sure you enjoyed ATLANTIS.
wej vIlegh. Okrand has not published an Atlantian dictionary, explained the
grammar or given it a useful vocabulary.
> qun luqon yaywI’
> “It is the victors who write the history.”
>
>
> > There really are other places to do what you wish to do.
> > Daqvetlh 'oHbe' naDev'e'. [That sounds suspiciously like pig
> latin.]
>
> Once again, I beg your pardon for having included the members of the
> tlh-H ListServ in the greater Klingon Kommunity. Your ivory towers
> have guarded you well. Open not the gates, lest the masque of the Red
> Death wander in.
Such an attitude. I'm not in any ivory tower. I live in a little
solar-electric cabin in the woods, typing on a laptop. I do not seek to be
guarded. I welcome anyone to learn the language. I find it very rewarding
for people to actually learn how to speak it. I find less interesting flame
wars with people who never go to the trouble to become sufficiently
conversant in ta' Hol to post their flames in Klingon or otherwise remain on
topic.
> > What those actors say when they pretend to speak a language they
> have not
> > had explained to them cannot be considered to be language in any
> form.
> > Whoever wrote down the nonsense they are supposed to pronounce was
> not a
> > linguist or a Klingon speaker. It is gibberish written by someone
> who may or
> > may not have ever seen TKD, but certainly never talked to Okrand,
> never
> > actually USED TKD in the manner it was designed to be used and
> never used
> > any of the other materials available for anyone interested in
> learning the
> > language.
>
> Did they NOT ask Marc? I don't know, since I haven't asked.
Okrand has described this to many of us at qep'a'. He has made offers, as
has the KLI, but the TV show is under a tight schedule and doesn't care
enough to deal with the delays that would be involved in getting a script to
anyone with a clue about the language before that scene needs to be shot.
Nobody involved in the TV show has ever consulted with him or us.
> He never
> talks about what he's currently working on. We didn't find out about
> Atlantis until two-years after he finished that effort.
He usually has to sign non-disclosure statements and would forfeit his pay
were he to violate that promise.
> If you're
> right; that P/V Branon & Braga didn't even bother...then this is a
> very sad state to be in.
Believe it.
> Maybe it's finally time to take up Vulcan ...
Just find a sponsor with the bucks to make it worth Okrand's time...
> }};-]
>
> qo'mey poSmoH Hol... chaq yabDu' je ('ej valwI'pu' jatlhwI'pu'
> je)!
>
> Qor'etlh valwI'na', buraD tuq, Duy'a' tlhIngan wo'
> Klingon Ambassadorial Residence, Washington D.C. Terra, UFP
> http://homeworld.klingonempire.net
> [email protected]
> chaq jIlughbe', 'ach reH Qor'etlh jIH!
> }};-]
charghwI'