tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Wed May 02 09:01:45 2001

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RE: KLBC: Grammer questions

lab Melody Jeffcoat:

>Qov:
>> Now try:
>
>vInID 'e' vIwuq.

Is Melody Jeffcoat just a different e-mail address of Paul McIntosh, or are
you different people?  Whoever you are, the sentences weren't a bad match
for you.  You have a good command of question grammar in Klingon, yet this
exercise uncovered a few important points of grammar you need to learn.  

>>  Why are there many sticky things under my bed?
>
>qatlh QongwIjDaq bIngDaq chaH Dochmey'e' Hum law'?

Rather than correcting this, I will give you the three tools you need to
correct it.

1. See TKD 4.2.5, particularly the paragraph beginning "When used with the
verb tu' find" to see how to express "there are" or "there is" in Klingon.
Only translate the verb to be with a pronoun when the to-be construction
equates one thing with another thing, e.g. "the man is a traitor."    

2. See TKD 3.4, particularly the last example for how to use -Daq with a
noun-noun construction.

3. Consider a way the type 9 verb suffix -wI' can make your sentence more
concise.

>>  How many aliens wear helmets because of asteroids?
>
> ghopDapmeymo' mIv lutuQ nov 'ar?

I don't know for sure whether this is grammatically correct in Klingon or
not.  The lu- prefix assigns multiple aliens to one helmet.  It's true that
they probably only wear one helmet each (unless some aliens have multiple
heads).  I would write tuQ, because the English was "wear helmets" not
"wear a helmet."

>>  Are there blue cups in the kitchen (galley)?
>
>vutpa'Daq chaH'a' tu'lummey SuD?

1. Same comment as in 1. for the first sentence.  
2. I said just "cups" not high class teacups.  I was thinking more of
HIvje'.  If you rejected that because of the gloss "glass (tumbler)" see p.
96 and p. 120-121 in KGT.  I think there's other canon too, indicating that
HIvje' is a general term for a drinking vessel.

>>  Can you disassemble my attitude control thrusters and that control panel?
>
>1. lolSeHchawIj, SeHlawvetlh je DaloghlaH'a'?
>2. lolSeHchawIj, SeHlawvetlh je tIlogh.

Good except for a dictionary error; the word is lagh.

I intended your first one, the actual question of the person's ability.
Good for you to realize that if the English were a polite command, the
Klingon imperative was the correct translation.

>>  Will the children attack each other tomorrow?
>
>wa'leS HIv'egh'a' puqpu'

That asks "will the children attack themselves?"  Have another look at TKD
4.2.1 to find how to express "each other."

>>  Were your neighbour's targs noisy yesterday?
>
>chuS'a' targhmey jIlwI' wa'Hu'?

Three problems here:

1. Review timestamp placement in TKD 6.7 (in the addendum).
2. Review the noun-noun construction in TKD 3.4.
3. You've made a slight error --but not the error I would expect-- in your
selection of type 4 noun suffix. 

>>  Does a warrior need to kill someone to get a waiter to come to his table?
>
raSDaj ghoSmeH jabwI' HoHnIS'a' SuvwI'?

maj.  Good economical use of the language.

>>  When did those old women eat the first meal?
>
>ghorgh Soj wa'DIch luSoppu; be'pu'vetlh qan?

I think I would have used nay' or nay'mey for meal, but I have no problem
with Soj.  nIQ would have worked, too.

Why did you use the perfective?  I didn't ask when they had finished the
first meal, merely when they ate it.  Don't slap -pu' on anything that
might have happened in the past.  Your sentence (correcting the obvious
typo of ; for ') reads, "when will they have eaten" or "when did they
finish eating?"

>>  I was an officer before the Romulans destroyed the base.
>
>waw' luQaw'pu'pa' romuluSnganpu' yaS jIH

The perfective is not necessary here, but it is one possible interpretation
of the English.

waw' luQaw'pa' - before they destroyed it, i.e. before the event
waw' luQaw'pu'pa' - before they destroyed it, i.e. before the destruction
was complete

If the destruction came in one fell swoop, then no difference.  If it took
years for them to destroy it, the second sentence could imply that
luQaw'taHvIS yaS Damoj.  Good that you didn't put /yaH jIHpu'/ because that
would imply that you had been an officer then, but weren't since the
destruction.

TKD can be confusing in this respect, because, Marc Okrand has admitted,
originally he intended -pu' to be past tense, and when he changed it to
perfective he didn't fix all the examples.

>>  I won't be present when the shuttle arrives, because I'm going to Earth in
>> the  morning.
>
>jISaHbe' pqwDI' lupDujHom, poDaq tera' vIjaHmo'

1. pqw should be paw, obviously.  You should be more careful for typos in
Klingon than English because the words are shorter and you're more likely
to make an unrecognizable mistake.  (People will laugh at this because i'm
the typo queen).

2. Expressions like "in the morning" or "at noon" are not locative in
Klingon.  There is no physical morning to be at.  As TKD 6.7 shows, just
put the timestamp at the beginning of the clause.  

3. As far as I know, jaH does not act like ghoS.  Its direct object is not
the destination.  I may be wrong here, because there was some new
information about verbs of motion revealed at a time when I was not very
active in the language.   watch to see if I am corrected on this point.

4. The biggest problem with this sentence doesn't show up unless oyu
thinkin Klingon.  You have translated the sentecnce I gave you, clause for
clause, and aside from 1-3 above you aren't violating any rules written in
TKD, but your sentence is hard to read.

Rewriting it without the errors mentioned above, I get;

I won't be present when the shuttle arrives, because I'm going to Earth in
the morning.
jISaHbe' pawDI' lupDujHom, po tera'Daq jIjaHmo'

Let me analyse why it is hard to read.

jISaHbe' pawDI' lupDujHom - "I won't be here when the shuttle arrives"
works fine by itself.  (Although it could mean "As soon as the shuttle
arrives, I won't care.")  It's perfectly legal to have the -DI' clause
follow the action it relates to.  But because we're used to having a time
stamp precede an action, as soon as we see that there is more of the
sentence after the -DI' clause, there's a tendency to believe that that
following clause is the one the -DI' clause is timestamping.

I won't be present when the shuttle arrives, because I'm going to Earth in
the morning.

in English, you know what function the second part of the sentence ioll
serve right away, because it starts with the word "because."  As soon as
you start reading that clause, you know it's going to give a reason for the
other stuff.  now look at Klingon.

jISaHbe' pawDI' lupDujHom, po tera'Daq jIjaHmo'.

"I won't be present/won't care" ... [I can't resolve this ambiguity until I
hear more of the sentence] ... "as soon as the shuttle arrives" ... now
there's more of the sentence, my first thought is that it's going to tell
me what will happen as soon as the shuttle arrives to either make me not
present or not care  ... "morning" .. okay something is going to happen to
the morning ... "I'm going to earth" ... -mo'  "because" AHA there it is
right at the end, okay now I can go back and solve the sentence ... if I
still have it all balanced in my head.

Look at another way to write the sentence:

po tera'Daq jIjaHmo', jISaHbe' pawDI' lupDujHom 
Now if I'm reading this I get:

"In the morning" okay something happens in the morning, what?  "I'm going
to Earth" ...  "because" alright, what happens because of that? "I won't be
there/won't care" There's my answer, but there's more of the sentence, "at
the time the  the shuttle arrives" okay, that's when I won't be there or
won't care.  Makes sense. 

Each clause gives the information you expected based on the last clause, or
at least doesn't add confusing information.

Fix up the ones I didn't fix for you, and I'll give you some more.  Anyone
else wants some sentences to work on, send me an e-mail of about ten lines
in your best Klingon and I will engineer personalized sentences to test
your abilities.

After years of typing Klingon, my left shift key has worn out (I don't
touch type properly and only use the one shift key).  I'm having to go back
and shift with the other hand to correct all my missed capitals.  Forgive
me if I missed any.
Qov

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