tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Sun Feb 18 23:50:07 2001
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RE: Peace! (was Re: post)
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Marc Ruehlaender [mailto:[email protected]]
> Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2001 4:05 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Peace! (was Re: post)
>
>
>
> > > ja' SarrIS:
> > >> > You write to a Klingon language list and end the
> > >> > message with "Peace"? Do you also write to vegetarian
> > >> > lists and end messages with "Meat"?
> >
> > To set the record straight, in English so everybody
> understands, this was
> > an off-handed remark. I was just making light of a fine person
> who happened
> > to be coming into the list with both barrels flaring, somewhat
> insensitive
> > to the nature of the list, posting repeatedly in English on topics not
> > relating to the language, and on top of all that, she has a sig
> file that,
> > in English, says "Peace". It struck me as funny, so I commented on it.
> >
> DaH jIyaj. IMO, it would have helped to add "That's funny." between
> the two remarks, or begin with a "LOL" or end with a ";-)" or something.
Realize that when a Klingon laughs out loud, it is usually time to take
cover. HaghDI' tlhIngan Sum Qobna'.
> It sounded rather aggressive to me the way it is above.
Naturally. {{:)>
> > I was not, as is suggested below, telling her to change her
> sig. Never in
> > that message or in any other communication with her have I
> suggested to her
> > that she change her sig. I wasn't telling her to do anything. I
> was asking
> > a somewhat sarcastic question because it struck me as funny. pItlh.
> >
> Do'Ha'. You indeed didn't tell her *explicitly*, but I hope you
> understand that I for one felt such implications.
>
> > rut tu'HommI'raH luqelqa'taH QIntetlhvam jeSwI'pu'. HeghQo'taH
> > qechtlheghvam ramqu'. vIHoHveH nuq vIlo'laH? Qapchu'bogh nuH yIngu'!
> >
> bIqIDchugh, bIqID 'e' yIngu'chu'.
> bISagh 'e' Har vay'. vIngu'chu'be'chugh, 'e' DapIHnIS.
I'm reminded of TNG episode 1, Far Point Station. Worf turns to Data and
says something very close to, "I don't understand their sense of humor,
either."
> > Sometimes I accidentally start a thread like this and then feel
> akin to Dr.
> > Frankenstein after his monster got loose. I had no idea this
> could happen.
> > Sheesh.
> >
> qay'be'. rut QumHa' nuv. jIQumHa'pu'. bIQumHa'pu'.
wa' DoS wIQeq.
> ghaytan jIQumHa'qa'. ghaytan bIQumHa'qa'.
bIvItba'.
> 'ach maQumnIStaH.
maQochbe'chu'.
> > > ja' Joel Peter Anderson <[email protected]>:
> > >> > Doghqu'! qatlh Hol lo'lu'taH? "roj" vIQumnISchugh vaj mu' "roj"
> > >> > vIlo'.
> > >>
> > > ja' ghunchu'wI':
> > >> wejpuH. Hughmaj DaghoDmeH roj Dayuvqu'qanglaw'.
> > >>
> > > nuqjatlh? roj <yuv> 'Iv?
> > > roj chuplu' neH.
> >
> > DIvI' Hol lo' mu'vam lo'taHvIS. tlhIngan mu' 'oHbe'. tlhIngan lurDech
> > 'oHbe'. tlhIngan ghob 'oHbe'.
> >
> bIlugh 'ach ram. tlhIngan maHbe'. Human maH.
> Human lurDech, Human ghob je wIpab.
bIlugh 'ach ram. QuchwIj Daleghpu'be'. Human jIH 'e' Hon nuvpu' law'.
> > qaS neH roj. [I like the ambivalence of that. "Peace merely
> happens. Peace
> > wants to happen." Both of these meanings apply.] Suvbe'lu'chugh 'ej
> > ghoHbe'lu'chugh qaS roj 'ach rojvaD ghoHlu'chugh ngab roj.
> maSuvchugh ghIq
> > <roj> bIjatlhchugh chaq bIroj, 'ach marojtaHchugh 'ej <roj>
> bIjatlhchugh,
> > chonuQ 'ej chotIchlaw'mo' bIrojHa'.
>
> cha' DIS wIqIp. roj DamuSlaw'. rojHa'meH 'eb Dajonqanglaw'.
"We hit two caves"? bIQumHa'mo' Qapba' leSSovlIj.
roj vIparHa'. roj mu' vIpar. vangmeH wanI' potlh law' mu'mey potlh puS.
> > >> > That is silly - we speak to communicate, and not always communicate
> > >> > ideas that people agree with.
> > >>
> > >> DaH bIDoghbej SoH. roj DaneHchugh, qatlh bIQochmeH <roj> Dajatlh?
> > >>
> > > nuqjatlh?? bIvempu''a'? 'a bIQongtaH'a'? QochmeH <roj> jatlh 'Iv?
> > > roj vIchupchugh 'ej lajbe'lu'chugh, lajHa'meH roj vIchup'a'?
> >
> > bIvaQ. chay' bIvaQtaHvIS bIrojlaH? bIghoHtaH. yItam!
> >
> nuqjatlh?? qamISqu'moH.
> ja' Joel: <<QummeH majatlh. qech DIQum. rut qechvammo' Qoch jatlhwI'
> 'IjwI' je.>>
> jang ghunchu'wI' jatlh: <<qatlh bIQochmeH <roj> Dajatlh?>>
> QochmeH <roj> jatlhlu'. not 'e' chup Joel.
> jIvaQtaHvIS jIrojlaH. not 'e' vIchup je.
> roj chuplu' 'ej lajbe'lu'. DuH ghu'vam 'e' wIchup Joel jIH je.
yIroj. <<roj>> yIjatlhQo' neH.
> tuyaj'a'?
bIyaj'a'? bIghungchugh 'ej <<yISop!>> jIjatlhchugh 'ach Soj qanobbe'chugh
vaj qaje'be'. vaj roj DaneHchugh 'ej <<roj>> jIjatlhtaHchugh 'ach
jIrojbe'chugh vaj marojbe'.
> > >> lugh SarrIS. roj luHutlhchugh cha' nuv, Qapbe' <roj> jatlhbogh wa'.
> > >
> > > cha' DoS wIqIp. Qapbe' roj chup wa', 'ach roj chup pagh,
> > > not roj luta'. chay' roj ta'lu', not chuplu'chugh?
> >
> > qaSlaH neH. ghoHbe'chugh Hoch, vaj qaSlaH.
> >
> bIrqu' rojvam. vIpar. rojbe'lu'.
> ghoHlu' net mev neH. 'ej loSlu'.
> <<yInejQo' - yIvang>> :) (jatlh Dr. Frank'N'Furter)
yIjatlhQo' neH - yIvang.
> > >> roj lughajchugh, 'utbe' mu' -- 'ej jatlhlu'chugh, ghu' 'arghmoH neH.
> > >
> > > jIQoch. roj wIHutlhchugh, roj vIchupmeH, <roj> vIjatlhlaH.
> > > roj wIghajchugh, taHmeH rojvam, <roj> vIjatlhlaH.
> >
> > roj jatlhlu'pa' maroj. DaH maghoH. ghu'maj Dublu''a'? bIDogh.
> >
> jIQoch. marojpa' roj vIchupmeH <roj> vIjatlhlaH.
ghaytanHa' Qap. wej Qap. Rarely do we fight so much among ourselves for
little reason than when one of us starts wearing the word "Peace" like some
sort of self-righteous badge to mark ourselves as superior to "normal"
people who obviously are farther from peace than those who wear it like a
bumper sticker.
It reminds me very much of an improve acting class I took in High School
with a group of kids in a summer Humanities group later renamed "The
Governor's School for the Gifted". In the exercise, we were supposed to use
our bodies to mime being part of a machine which makes something. Someone
suggested that we should make "love".
So, people started miming an assembly line where they kissed or hugged the
little packets of love as they went down the line, with each person saying,
"love, love, love, love, love," until someone said, "hate", and a bunch of
the "love" people ganged up on him and shoved him. Then someone else said,
"hate" and the whole room turned into pandimonium. I rolled into a fetal
ball and was kicked in the back by one of the "love" people, even though I
had not yet said anything. I went tumbling across the floor as we devolved
into a chaotic wrestling match.
Finally, a couple of the "love" people "got it". They started gently holding
back their rather violent brethren and slowly regained control of the room,
making the kind of love that accepts the reality that we are not all prone
to be sappy sweet and should not be hated by those who claim to love all
because we don't line up for labotomies so we can smile vacuously and recite
"love, peace" while attacking anyone who dares to make fun of us or
disagree.
The action of peace is far more useful than the word. I'm impressed by
people who act in peace. I try imperfectly, but I know others who act it far
more righteously (and not self-righteously) and they rarely use the word.
They just do it.
> ghIq Dalaj pagh DalajQo'. Dalajchugh, marojchoHlaH.
> chaq jIDogh. jISaHbe'.
qay'be'.
> > >> > If peace is what I wish to communcate, then
> > >> > naturally I'll use that word.
> > >>
> > >> yIqelchu': roj'e' DaneHchugh, chaq mu''e' DalonnIS.
> mu'vetlh Dajatlh
> > >> 'ej Dajatlhqa' 'ej Dajatlhqa'taHqu', bInuQchoH 'ej ghaytan bIrojHa'.
> > >
> > > Do'Ha'. 'ach motlh qaSbe' wanI' DaDelbogh.
> > > motlh <roj> chup vay', nuvvam lubuSHa' latlh pagh lutlho'.
> >
> > nuqDaq motlh ghu'vam? naDev motlhbe'bej.
> >
> I'm sorry for reverting to English. You are saying that
> all (American?) people become annoyed when, e.g. someone
> approaches them with hand stretched out saying "Peace?".
No, but many do. "Usual" situations are not universal.
> I sincerely doubt that. As I tried to express in Klingon
> above, in my experience such offers are either declined
> and ignored or acknowledged as a token of good will.
During the 1960s in the United States there were people who were actively
protesting a war that divided our nation because it was one of the more
difficult military actions to justify in our history. They protested by
wearing peace signs and giving peace signs with their fingers (ironically
identical to the "victory" signs of WWII) and saying "Peace" to everyone
they met and writing "Peace" and peace signs on everything. That was the
first wave. They had a message.
When I had to go to register for the draft for that war, I went prepared to
make that statement, but they just told me to shut up and accept a
classification of "1-H", which meant that my status was on hold. I would
have to wait until later to plead my case to become a contientious objector.
They ended the draft that same year before they performed the lottery
drawing that would have chosen or spared me, so I never had the opportunity
to stand in defiance of the system.
But then there was the second wave who just thought this was cool and used
it as a strange sort of stylish excuse to dodge basic responsibilities.
Slackers who meet a landlord with a peace sign instead of a rent check. That
sort of thing. Just get stoned and wish peace upon the world. It got a
little annoying for more than a few people because it seemed so easy and so
shallow.
My father was crippled by war. He died when I was 9, likely from long-term
complications of his weakened body from the 22 months he spent in a military
hospital after his incident, including 18 months in a body cast. I have
unusually strong feelings about peace. I have taken slaps to the face,
suggesting to my attacker that if he honestly felt there was some benefit to
the world in his hitting me, he should do it again. I told him that he was
not "man enough" to make me fight. He hit me four times before he realized
just how wrong he was and started crying and ran off. I was a better
pacifist then than I am now, but I still have strong feelings about peace.
> I don't know how many people would, as ghunchu'wI' suggests,
> keep asking "Peace?" while being kicked and punched. There
> aren't that many Jesuses and Ghandis as far as I can tell.
That's my whole point. The word without the action is cheap. Dojbe'.
bIvanglaHchu'taHDI' yIjatlh. bItob'eghta'pa' yItam.
> > > SarrIS made his original comment in English.
> >
> > As part of a message that included Klingon text, unlike the
> message I was
> > responding to.
> >
> yeah, but only in Klingon you complained that the person
> didn't use Klingon, while it seemed clear that she would
> not be able to understand that part of your message, while
> she quite obviously (mis)understood the English part.
To be honest, there are times when I don't quite realize what part of a
message I'm saying in English and what part is in Klingon. It flows back and
forth. I obviously goofed.
> > There is a difference between ribbing someone about their
> charming trait
> > and telling them to change. I never told her to change. To be
> honest, I'd
> > be disappointed if she changed. Dal pagh jagh net Sov.
> >
> As I said, it completely escaped me that you were
> "ribbing" her.
I hope your perception was not the majority perception.
> > > If you'd tell me not to include
> > > "aka HomDoq" in my signature, how do you think I'd feel about
> > > that?
> >
> > Of course, that assumes that I told her to change HER sig,
> which I never
> > did. Meanwhile, if I just made fun of your sig, with something
> like, {*aka*
> > vIyajbe'. chay' vImugh? tlhaQ wabvam.} If you then went on a fifty line
> > diatribe proclaiming your right to use the "word" aka, then you
> might fully
> > qualify as annoying, fixated and just a half bubble off plumb, not to
> > mention thoroughly lacking a sense of humor.
> >
> I completely agree.
>
> > vuDlIj 'oH. maQoch. qay'be'.
> >
> wa' DoS wIqIpchoH :)
maj.
> > qaS neH roj.
> >
> tugh qaSjaj roj.
mu'mey QaHlaHbogh vISamlaHbe'.
> Marc Ruehlaender
> aka HomDoq
> [email protected]
SarrIS