tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Sun Feb 18 22:38:33 2001
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RE: Using names
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Steven Boozer [mailto:[email protected]]
> Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2001 4:10 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Using names
>
>
> Da'veS asked:
>
> : I am new to the list, and to tlhngan-Hol. I just bought a copy
> : of TKD last night. I looked in it for information on the proper
> : use of "pong", but did not see anything specific to my question.
> : What is the proper way to introduce oneself in tlhIngan-Hol?
> : (i.e. My name is...)
...
> [{pong} as a verb] (charghwI', Wed, 20 Mar 1996)
> How many times do we have to respond to "How do I say, 'My
> name is Fred in
> Klingon," by evading the obvious verb {pong} because we simply
> don't know how
> to use it?
>
> (charghwI', Sun, 14 May 95)
> We don't really know how to handle verbs like {pong}, since
> they require
> two objects. The subject is the one who is naming or calling. One
> object is the
> person being named and the other object is the name. The closest
> I can come to
> using this verb is something like {charghwI' mupong tlhInganpu'}.
> Still, this
> is awkward and doesn't work very well when you try to introduce a
> friend. (Just
> try it.) "You can call my friend 'Holtej'." Most people fall back
> to using the
> noun form. {jupwI' pong 'oH Holtej'e'}.
> ------------------------------------------------------
>
> [BTW: I'm not sure I agree with charghwI' (a.k.a. SarrIS) that
> {pong} requires
> a double object. We have just one odd example - with {-lu'} yet!
> - by Okrand
> of the verb {pong} in context:
[I am SarrIS, channelling for charghwI']
Please note that you are quoting things I said in 1995 and 1996. At that
time, nobody knew how this was to be done, and Okrand himself had referred
to {pong} as a "ditransitive" verb in conversations on the topic. He later
revealed that one of the two objects can be treated as an indirect object.
The person being named gets {-vaD} while the name itself is the direct
object. So long as the person named is first or second person, by extention,
we can also use the prefix shortcut to imply an indirect object, so
{charghwI' mupong tlhInganpu'} is indeed valid as a shortcut for {jIHvaD
charghwI' lupong tlhInganpu'} and for {You can call my friend 'Holtej',"
that would be {jupwI'vaD Holtej DaponglaH}.
> roD 'oHvaD juHqo' ponglu' neH
> [Qo'noS] is usually referred to as simply "The Homeworld." (S27)
Note that this example came after my quote. It was basically Okrand's
response to our questions about how to say this. I was not alone in seeking
this. I claim no credit for goading him to answer the problem, except as one
voice in the choir.
> Must {pong} always be used with {-lu'}? We don't know; we only
> have the one
> example. Verbs like "name", "call", "dub" etc. do require double direct
> objects in English, Latin and other languages, but Klingon may
> not work that
> way. I think apposition may be more productive. But that's a
> long discussion
> for another time!]
Apposition doesn't seem sufficient here. "You can call my friend, Holtej."
"You can name me, SarrIS." It doesn't carry the meaning.
> Read the FAQ if you haven't yet at
>
> http://higbee.cots.net/~holtej/klingon/faq.htm
>
> Unlike a lot of other FAQs, this one is full of genuinely useful
> information
> based on the questions people invariably ask when the start
> learning Klingon
> and join this mailing list. You will want to check the section on the
> Beginning Grammarian at
>
> http://higbee.cots.net/~holtej/klingon/faq.htm#1.2.1
Good advice worth repeating, so it is unclipped.
> Welcome to the list Da'veS. Don't hesitate to ask questions or otherwise
> participate in the discussions.
>
> Qapla'!
>
>
>
> --
> Voragh
> Ca'Non Master of the Klingons
charghwI' Dabogh SarrIS.