tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Mon Jul 03 15:33:09 2000
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Re: Deixis and direction
---- Original Message -----
From: David Trimboli <[email protected]>
> jatlh qe'San:
> > I thought [qang] meant "pour from one thing to another/decant"..
wouldn't
> > that (and this is a question) mean that if a target of the pouring was
> > specified it would be the indirect object of the sentence with the
direct
> > object, if specified, being the liquid..???
>
> Thanks, qe'San. You've helped me to illustrate one of my points: that our
> understanding of Klingon is going to be inextricably tied in with our
> understanding of English (or whatever your native language happens to be).
>
> bIQ vIqang.
> I pour the water.
I agree that
bIQ vIqang = "I pour the water"
>
> I can't disagree with the idea that pouring can be done for an indirect
> object, so I'll add the following non-object, non-subject noun:
>
> HIvje'vaD bIQ vIqang.
However I disagree (for the same reasons you gave later in the email) that
HIvje'vaD bIQ vIqang = "I pour the water in the cup." In itself it makes
little other sense and may communicate the meaning but it is icky as you say
and possibly incorrect.
>
> I'm not entirely certain I like that. I'm not saying it's wrong, but it
> certainly strikes me as icky.
>
> On the other hand, if I want to express the idea of the cup's location,
I'd
> say
>
> HIvje'Daq bIQ vIqang.
>
Since MO says, "pour (from one thing to another...)" in the meaning for
[qang] and on page 99 of KGT he says, "Usually one will pour (qang) the
drink directly from the bal into the HIvje', ...."
I assumed he follows a similar usuage of "from one place to another"
illustrated in HolQeD 8:4 pg 8.
" tIngvo' 'evDaq chanDaq Literally this means "from area-sothwestward to
area-northwestward to area eastward"..
He also infers in the KGT example the various noun placements whithin the
sentence with the 'drink' being the direct object of qang. Although the
HolQeD example is refering to something travelling between areas and is used
as an idiom, I think between the two examples it clearly illustrates Klingon
usage of "from x to y"
With the "from x to y" example above applied to qang, I do feel that it
would be:
HIvje'Daq bIQ vIqang - "I pour the water into the cup"
To expand the sentence further so that I specified the varoius nouns
involved (not that you would ever say them) I personally might say something
like:
SuvwI'vaD balDajvo' HIve'Daq HIq qang chom - "The bartender pours the wine
for the warrior from his jug to the tumbler " - Obviously, in general
usage most parts would remain unspecified.
I think the interesting thing here (if I'm correct and in reference to qang)
is that it would allow usage like:
HIvje' SuvwI'Daq HIq qang chom - "The bartender pours the wine in the
warriors tumbler"
qach Suy'Daq HIq qang be' = The female pours the wine over the {real-estate
agent} house merchant.
I appreciate that because I can do something IS NOT a reason to say that its
right but I hope the "from x to y" example is evidence enough.
> Or, if I wanted to express the idea that the captain made me pour the
water,
> I could say
>
> HoDmo' bIQ vIqang.
>
> I might even combine all of these and still get a meaningful sentence
> (provided you accepted /HIvje'vaD/).
>
> HoDmo' HIvje'Daq HIvje'vaD bIQ vIqang.
>
> Personally, I wouldn't use /HIvje'vaD/ for this sort of thing unless I was
> absolutely sure it conveyed the right meaning. It just sounds too strange
> for me. If I'm talking about pouring the water INTO the cup, I'll use
> /-Daq/, since that'll give me the same end result, yet its meaning is
pretty
> clear.
>
> > As to pouring into something I thought the verb used there was [lIch] -
> > pour (into/onto anything). In this case as into/onto is implied in the
> > action.
>
> Ha!! Wonderful way to circumvent the whole question!
>
> Alas, the idiom uses /qang/, not /lIch/. Is /lIch/ general purpose, or is
> there a restricted meaning? I don't know where in KLINGON FOR THE
GALACTIC
> TRAVELER to find it. Sometimes the addendum of that book isn't entirely
> clear on the special meanings of things.
I can't see any example of lIch but qang is mentioned on page 99 KGT in
"Usually one will pour (qang) the drink directly from the bal into the
HIvje', ...."
>
>
> SuStel
> Stardate 504.5