tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Wed Jul 05 01:07:49 2000

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RE: Deixis and direction



> -----Original Message-----
> From: qe'San (Jon Brown) [mailto:[email protected]]
> Sent: Monday, July 03, 2000 6:35 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Deixis and direction
>
>
> ---- Original Message -----
> From: David Trimboli <[email protected]>
>
> > jatlh qe'San:
> > > I thought [qang] meant "pour from one thing to another/decant"..
> wouldn't
> > > that (and this is a question) mean that if a target of the pouring was
> > > specified it would be the indirect object of the sentence with the
> direct
> > > object, if specified, being the liquid..???
> >
> > Thanks, qe'San.  You've helped me to illustrate one of my
> points: that our
> > understanding of Klingon is going to be inextricably tied in with our
> > understanding of English (or whatever your native language
> happens to be).
> >
> > bIQ vIqang.
> > I pour the water.
>
> I agree that
> bIQ vIqang = "I pour the water"
>
> >
> > I can't disagree with the idea that pouring can be done for an indirect
> > object, so I'll add the following non-object, non-subject noun:
> >
> > HIvje'vaD bIQ vIqang.
>
> However I disagree (for the same reasons you gave later in the email) that
> HIvje'vaD  bIQ  vIqang = "I pour the water in the cup." In itself it makes
> little other sense and may communicate the meaning but it is icky
> as you say
> and possibly incorrect.
>
> >
> > I'm not entirely certain I like that.  I'm not saying it's wrong, but it
> > certainly strikes me as icky.
> >
> > On the other hand, if I want to express the idea of the cup's location,
> I'd
> > say
> >
> > HIvje'Daq bIQ vIqang.
> >
>
> Since MO says, "pour (from one thing to another...)" in the meaning for
> [qang]

AHA! I was thrown by using Holtej's pojwI'. He put the "from one container
into another" in the "comments" section of the words list, where I can't see
it unless I go in to edit the word list. Updated.

> and on page 99 of KGT he says, "Usually one will pour (qang) the
> drink directly from the bal into the HIvje', ...."
> I assumed he follows a similar usuage of "from one place to another"
> illustrated in HolQeD 8:4 pg 8.
>
> " tIngvo'  'evDaq  chanDaq  Literally this means "from
> area-sothwestward to
> area-northwestward to area eastward"..

Very likely.

> He also infers in the KGT example the various noun placements whithin the
> sentence with the 'drink' being the direct object of qang.

Well, that's stretching things a bit. While I believe that what you are
saying is true (the drink is the direct object of {qang}, page 99 is a very
poor example for canon sake. It just has a few Klingon words scattered in an
English sentence without any dependable Klingon grammar suggested.

> Although the
> HolQeD example is refering to something travelling between areas
> and is used
> as an idiom, I think between the two examples it clearly
> illustrates Klingon
> usage of  "from x to y"
>
> With the "from x to y" example above applied to qang, I do feel that it
> would be:
> HIvje'Daq bIQ vIqang - "I pour the water into the cup"

ghaytan.

> To expand the sentence further so that I specified the varoius nouns
> involved (not that you would ever say them) I personally might
> say something
> like:
>
> SuvwI'vaD balDajvo' HIve'Daq HIq qang chom - "The bartender pours the wine
> for the warrior from his jug to the tumbler "   - Obviously, in general
> usage most parts would remain unspecified.

Good example.

> I think the interesting thing here (if I'm correct and in
> reference to qang)
> is that it would allow usage like:
> HIvje' SuvwI'Daq HIq qang chom - "The bartender pours the wine in the
> warriors tumbler"

Likely true.

> qach Suy'Daq HIq qang be' = The female pours the wine over the
> {real-estate
> agent} house merchant.

Well, it sounds like {lIch} would have been a better source here, since the
merchant is not a container, though from the gloss, I'm not sure the direct
object isn't the surface poured onto/into and if that's the case, what
grammatical slot is left open for the stuff being poured?

> I appreciate that because I can do something IS NOT a reason to
> say that its
> right but I hope the "from x to y" example is evidence enough.

I hope so, too.

> > Or, if I wanted to express the idea that the captain made me pour the
> water,
> > I could say
> >
> > HoDmo' bIQ vIqang.
> >
> > I might even combine all of these and still get a meaningful sentence
> > (provided you accepted /HIvje'vaD/).
> >
> > HoDmo' HIvje'Daq HIvje'vaD bIQ vIqang.
> >
> > Personally, I wouldn't use /HIvje'vaD/ for this sort of thing
> unless I was
> > absolutely sure it conveyed the right meaning.  It just sounds
> too strange
> > for me.  If I'm talking about pouring the water INTO the cup, I'll use
> > /-Daq/, since that'll give me the same end result, yet its meaning is
> pretty
> > clear.
> >
> > > As to pouring into something I thought the verb used there
> was [lIch]  -
> > > pour (into/onto anything).  In this case as into/onto is
> implied in the
> > > action.
> >
> > Ha!!  Wonderful way to circumvent the whole question!
> >
> > Alas, the idiom uses /qang/, not /lIch/.  Is /lIch/ general
> purpose, or is
> > there a restricted meaning?  I don't know where in KLINGON FOR THE
> GALACTIC
> > TRAVELER to find it.  Sometimes the addendum of that book isn't entirely
> > clear on the special meanings of things.
>
> I can't see any example of lIch but qang is mentioned on page 99 KGT in
> "Usually one will pour (qang) the drink directly from the bal into the
> HIvje', ...."

All true. The glosses are interestingly different, however.

> > SuStel
> > Stardate 504.5

charghwI'



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