tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Thu Mar 18 15:00:14 1999
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Re: The Naked Stars and *klingonaase*
Voragh:
> I dug out my copy last night and looked up this proverb in full (TFR
> [1984], p. 23 et passim):
>
> If there are gods, they do not help, and justice belongs to the
> strong: but know that all things done before the naked stars are
> remembered.
>
> Many have tried to translate this into tlhIngan Hol, none very successfully
charghwI':
: Is that an invitation for me to give it a try, or WHAT?
So far you're the only one that took the bait.
> "Naked stars" is itself an especial problem.
: Hovmey Huv. Nothing else works. It is clear what it means, but
: it is somewhat awkward in English, which explains why it was
: "changed" in translation for the novel. {{:)>
Now THIS I like! pup 'oH <Hovmey Huv>'e'. Now we're cooking. (Now THAT'S
an un-Klingon expression!)
: qa''a' HoS lu'tu'lu'chugh vaj nuQaHQo' 'ej ruv luwuqlaH
: HoSwI'pu' neH, 'ach Hoch wanI'mey'e' leghlaHbogh Hovmey Huv
: qawlu'chu'taH net Sov.
:
: And for a less literal, perhaps more graceful translation,
: replace the ending with:
:
: 'ach Hoch wanI'mey'e' leghpu'bogh Hovmey Huv reH qawchu'taH
: net Sov.
:
: "...but one knows the unobstructed stars always remember all
: events that they have seen." In both cases, I used the less
: conventional placement of the adverbial {reH} in order to make
: it clear that it applies to the main verb and not the relative
: clause.
:
: So, is this better than other versions you've seen?
Much better. Still not perfect though. You missed the intentional
ambiguity in "all things done before the naked stars are remembered."
Remembered by whom? Surely by the participants themselves, but who else?
The gods that may or may not exist? The stars? The universe? Fate?
Something else? All of the above? None of the above? This is the perfect
place for the indefinite subject suffix {-lu'}. In proverbs a little
ambiguity is a Good Thing as they can apply to many situations.
I'd drop {reH} and {-chu'}; they're redundant with {-lu'taH}. Think of
Kruge's simple and elegant {batlh Daqawlu'taH} "you will be remembered with
honor". He didn't clutter up the thought with {reH} "you will *always* be
remembered". I'd even drop {-mey} from {wanI'}; in this context the
difference between "each event" and "all events" is irrelevant. Ditto for
the aspectual suffix {-pu'}; whether the event has already occurred, is in
the process of occurring, or is about to occur is equally irrelevant. The
point is that any and all deeds done "before the naked stars" IS remembered.
Let's see... {Hovmey tlhop} "area in front of the stars" works for "before
the naked stars". On a planet you might want to say {bIng} "area under",
but in the 23rd century the proverb is widely used for events occurring out
in relativistic space. How do you know when you're in front of a star, or
behind a star, or under a star, or above a star? {tlhop} will do.
So, what do we have now?
Hovmey Huv tlhopDaq qaSbogh Hoch wanI' qawlu'taH
Each event which occurs before the naked stars is remembered
Hovmey Huv tlhopDaq qaSbogh Hoch wanI'mey luqawlu'taH
Every event which occurs before the naked stars is remembered
All events which occur before the naked stars are remembered
Is that right? I always get confused using {-bogh} and {-lu'} together.
Hmmm... let's try a different tack, using {-DI'} "as soon as, when":
Hovmey Huv tlhopDaq qaSDI' wanI' qawlu'taH.
When an event occurs before the naked stars, it is remembered.
Not bad. We're getting there. What do you think?
> As for klingonaase, various fan authors writing in Ford's "universe" have
> expanded our knowledge of this interesting language a bit, most notably Ann
> K. Schwader's marvelous Neysa and Karan stories and novels. Most writers
> however only came up with words and expressions as they needed them in the
> story, so we're lacking a complete sketch of the grammar and a working
> vocabulary like Okrand's "The Klingon Dictionary."
: Most entries like this in the novels or TV series are nouns
: sprinkled into English sentences. They just don't get it. VERBS!
: If you want to express something in Klingon, use VERBS!
Agreed. But look again at the examples I posted. There are verbs. Not
many, but they are there:
> k'tra ghahrin
> "Let it be remembered"
>
> k'tra khes'hrin
> "Let it be forgotten"
<k'tra ghahrin> and <k'tra khes'hrin> are clearly verbal forms. Are the
root verbs <ghah> (or <gha>) "remember" and <khes> (or <khes'>) "forget"?
Is <-rin> (or <-hrin>) a passive marker? Is <-'h> a past tense or
perfective marker? Is <k'tra> some sort of auxiliary verb or modal
particle meaning "let, may, etc."? And just how are these pronounced
anyway? I don't know, but you can have fun trying to extrapolate some
grammar from these bits and pieces. Not enough to really be productive,
unfortunately. Klingonaase looks like it might have been a fun language to
play with had Ford et al. developed it.
Ditto for Diane Duane's version of Romulan, *Rihanssu*; but that's another
thread for another forum, such as the vulcan-linguistics list. (I just
heard BTW that Duane has agreed to do two more Romulan novels for Pocket
Books, tentatively due in the fall of 2000. We may soon have some more
Rihanssu to play with if she does more work on the language, as her legions
of fans have been begging her to do.)
--
Voragh
Ca'Non Master of the Klingons