tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Thu Mar 12 17:26:48 1998
[Date Prev][Date Next][Thread Prev][Thread Next]
Re: Amar Qawlu'
- From: Qov <[email protected]>
- Subject: Re: Amar Qawlu'
- Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 17:24:49 -0800
At 12:20 98-03-12 -0800, charghwI' wrote:
}As I said, the BG will undoubtably give you the point-by-point,
}but I thought these hints might help you more immediately,
}since it seems the BG has not gotten to this yet.
maj charghwI', bong jabbI'IDvam vInoppu'.
}According to mack tabor:
Mack, I'm Qov, the Beginners' Grammarian charghwI' spoke of, here to guide
you to better Klingon in 90 days, or ten years, however long it takes. I'm
glad to see that you trying your tlhIngan Hol, but I have a couple of
general recommendations for you to make it easier on both of us.
1. Mark your posts with the letters "KLBC" in the subject header so that I
know to give the grammar my attention. Others will give you feedback on the
content, and anything I missed, or that I said and they disagree with, but
they have to wait for me so that you aren't bombarded with confusing
information.
2. Include an English translation. When there are mistakes it is difficult
or impossible to tell what was intended, and thus difficult to correct the
problems. And it is possible to write something that is perfectly
grammatical, but isn't what you meant to say. I couldn't tell that without
a translation.
I'm going to go through this and write what it seems to say, in English,
then point out any problems with the way it is said.
}> orghen rojmab bIvta' tlhingan
"A Klingon had broken the Organian peace treaty ..."
Not too bad. {'orghen} starts with a {'} and {tlhIngan} has an {I} not "i."
> 'elDI tera'vo Vejur pong jan luwuqpu ra'ghomquv.
"... as soon as from Earth Vejur's name entered, the High Councils decided
on the device."
Hmm. I'll guess that you you were going for something like: "The High
Council decided when the device named Vejur entered from Earth that a
Klingon had broken the Organian peace treaty." This doesn't make much
logical sense so I don't think it can be what you really meant, but I hope
you will learn something from this analysis that will help you write an
amended version, along with an English translation.
Note that the High Council, even though composed of numerous people, is
singular, just as in English. We say "the High Council decides something"
and we say {vay' wuq ra'ghomquv}.
A noun with a type 5 suffix (like {tera'vo'}), must always go before the
object, verb and subject of the clause it applies to. So {tera'vo' 'el}
"enters from Earth."
"the device named Vejur" is an awkward thing to say in Klingon. We don't
have a verb "to be named." You could say "The device which uses 'Vejur' to
name itself" {pong'eghmeH <Vejur> lo'bogh jan'e'} but that can get unwieldy
to fit into a long sentence. Desgribe the naming in another sentence, then
just refer to it as {jan} or "Vejur."
The main problem with the whole sentence is its length. The order of the
clauses makes it difficult to put in the grammatical glue you are missing.
You've tried to make the first clause the object of the last one, with a lot
of intervening stuff. And you're missing the tool that is needed to make a
sentence the object of another verb. The tool is {'e'}. Read about it in
section 6.2.5. I think the examples there and the admonition not to try to
cram as much into a Klingon sentence as an English one should help you out.
tera'vo' 'elDI' Vejur, 'orghen rojmab bIvta' tlhIngan 'e' wuq ra'ghomquv.
"When Vejur entered from Earth, the High Council decided that a Klingon had
broken/will have broken the Organian peace treaty."
If you meant "decided that he would break ..." write {bIv 'e' wuq}, instead
of the perfective.
}> qugh Dujmeymajvo' Qaw meq ghajbe' 'ej tlhinganwo'vo DeHat
}> lI'tera'vaD.
"cruise .. from our ships ... it destroys ... it doesn't have reason and
from the Klingonempire inftemperature? usefultoEarth."
Don't misspell {Qaw'}.
Here again you have nouns with type 5 suffixes after verbs (Dujmeymajvo'}
and {tera'vaD}, but I'm afraid this transmission is too garbled to
completely decode, even though I know the story.
A Klingon sentence has one main verb, all others must be acting as
adjectives, have type 9 suffixes, or be separated by verb conjunctions.
Here you have {qugh}, {Qaw'}, and {ghajbe'}, so I can't find the main
clause. Also be sure to put spaces between your words, and include all the
letters in each word. Maybe {DeHat} is supposed to be {De' Hat} "illegal
information," but that kind of compound is not used.
}> chID 'ejyo vangghachvam 'ej ngoyghach lajQo'.
"This actionation of the starship admits it and it refuses to accept
responsibleness."
Perhaps you mean: "The starship admits this action and it refuses to accept
responsibility"?
The big problem here is {-ghach}. It's inadequately explained in TKD 2nd
edition, but Marc Okrand followed up with more information on it. It's for
creating nouns from actions, but it sounds very marked, like "actionation"
or "responsibleness" if it is used on a bare verb stem. Use it when the
meaning you want is expressed by a verb with suffixes. (Notice that I
didn't say add some random suffix to justify using {-ghach}. If you find
yourself wanting to add {-ghach} to a bare verb, just rewrite the sentence
to use trhe verb itself. Klingon is more verb-based than English. You have
to get used to it.
"accept responsibility" is an English idiom. Translate it with a verb
instead of a noun, such as "is not willing to be responsible" or "refuses to
admit it is responsible." We're not really sure what the Klingon concebt of
"be responsible" covers, so you might be better off using other words to
expain what you mean.
}> DaH tengchaH ghoqwI' Qawpu'bogh janmo' tengchaH ghoqwI' chu' luchenlI' chaH.
"Now because of the device that has destroyed the space station's spies,
they are coming into form new space station spies."
{Qaw'} not *{Qaw}
Putting a type-5 noun suffix on the head of a relative clause with {-bogh}
is dangerously controversial waters. I think it as understandable here, but
I also think there was a better way to do it.
DaH tengchaH ghoqwI' Qaw'pu'mo' jan tengchaH ghoqwI' chu' luchenmoHlI' chaH.
"Now because the device has destroyed the spacestation spy, they are
creating a new spacestation spy."
{chen} is take form, the way a pot takes form on a potter's wheel, or a plan
takes form in your mind. The potter's action or your mind's action is to
*cause* it to take form, requiring the type 4 verb suffix {-moH}. Thus
{chenmoH} "cause to take form", "build", "create."
It occurs to me that maybe {tengchaH ghoqwI'} is "spy satellites." How
about {ghoqbogh SIbDoH}?
}> vangghach nuchghach wIcherghlaHbe'.
"We cannot tolerate this cowardness of actionation."
More ugly {-ghach} words. {nuch} is already a noun, don't put a noun suffix
on it.
I'm guessing "We cannot tolerate this cowardly action."
We don't know of a Klingon verb "be cowardly." Perhaps:
{vangDI' nuchpu'vetlh ghu' wIcherghlaHbe'}
}> tengchaH ghoqwI'chu' wIHIv SIm rojvaD wa' tamghachmaj.
"We will attack the new spacestation spy ... calculate ... for the peace ..
one our quietification/exchangification."
I can get the first part, but I'm lost on the rest. If you mean "we
calculate that we attack" use {'e'}, something like.
wIHIv 'e' wISIm
}> Qaw' rIntaH lanDaq Amar neHmaH lujuSlaH pa'yoS
}> Duj Hoch
{lan} is a verb. Don't put a noun suffix on it. I'm not sure what you mean
by it, anyway. (reread sections 3.3.5 and 6.1)
It's something about destroyed once and for all and all the ships being able
to pass the Amar neutral zone, but I can't quite find how it is supposed to
go together.
No idea what you mean by {pa'yoS}.
All the ships is {Hoch Dujmey}. You couldn't predict that, we argued about
it for years before Okrand explained it. Now you know.
}> 'ej tengchaH luchenHa'.
Same {chen} problem as before.
{chenHa'moH}
This one is right out of TKD, p. 47-48.
}> Qapla'qu'.
{-qu'} is an intensifier for verbs and {Qapla'} is a noun.
It *wasn't* bad at all for a beginner. (charghwI' is, as he said, grouchy.
So am I at times, but lucky you, this isn't one of those times). Notably
you make very good vocabulary choices, you understand prefixes, you
understand OVS word order and you seem to understand the meanings of the
suffixes you are using. You even appear to be using the perfective
properly, for which I could give you a prize.
Your main weaknesses are using sentences that are too long for Klingon
syntax; not knowing -- you had no way of knowing -- about the restrictions
on {-ghach}; and misplaced chuvmey. I have no doubt that you can correct
these and write interesting, intelligible Klingon stories.
Qov [email protected]
Beginners' Grammarian