tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Fri Sep 05 19:59:30 1997
[Date Prev][Date Next][Thread Prev][Thread Next]
Re: KLBC: (Requiem) cha'DIch 'ay'
- From: Qov <[email protected]>
- Subject: Re: KLBC: (Requiem) cha'DIch 'ay'
- Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 19:59:17 -0700 (PDT)
At 02:35 PM 9/5/97 -0700, Edy wrote:
> Greetings, Qov .. I changed somethings and now, I think they are
> better. It's nice trying to translate somethings because I ever
> forget some datails, as Indirect object preceeds the object, etc ..
Translating also seems to make some people forget the rules they do
know, just looking up words instead of weighing ideas. It's a trap.
I still think you've bitten off a bit more than you can chew here,
but as long as you do the chewing, Qapla'.
message title:
> lIHwI' - Introduction (as qoror suggested)
"thing that introduces" That works well enough.
> joH, batlh SuvwI'pu'vaD ngeHbej roj tInob vaj chaH wovmoH boch qul
> (Lord, give the cosmic peace to the honored warriors and the bright
> fire will light them)
batlh means "honour" or "with honour." "Honoured" is {quv}. A verb
acting as an adjective goes *after* the noun.
{SuvwI'pu' quvvaD} - for the honoured warriors
{qul boch} - shiny fire
Still a prefix problem on {nob}, should be {yI-} not {tI-} because it
represents the singular peace not the plural warriors. It can be
confusing, there's another {nob} object problem in the next line
so I'll go over it.
> Qo'noSDaq, SoH cha'nob nInob *
> (In Kronos, they offer you ritual gifts)
Placement and prefix agreement of direct and indirect objects:
If there is one object the prefix agrees with it.
{qalegh} - "I see you"
{loS DeQmey bonob} - "You will give four credits"
If there are two objects the indirect object comes first, with {-vaD}, then
the direct object, and the prefix agrees with the direct object.
{jIHvaD loS DeQmey bonob} - "You will give four credits to me."
{SajmeyvaD Soj luqemlI' puqpu'} - "The children are bringing food for the
pets."
Optionally, when the indirect object is first or second person, the indirect
object is not written and the verb prefix for that object is used instead.
{loS DeQmey tunob} - "You will give me four credits"
The prefix does NOT agree with the indirect object when {-vaD} is used.
Thus above {SuvwI'pu'vaD roj yInob} and either {SoHvaD cha'nob nob} or
{cha'nob nInob}, your choice.
mIwvam Dayajchu''a'?
> Qo'noSDaq batlh naDlIj lubom
> (In Kronos, they sing with honor your commendation)
maj. {qeylISDaq} was not wrong, either. It's just occured to me that I am
assuming that the honoured warriors from the first line are the subject of
these sentences. If not, if it's just the vague "they" you'll need to use
{-lu'}.
joHwI' lughoSqangbogh Hoch qa'mey, mu'meywIj DaQoy
(my lord, for whom all spirits is willing to approach, hear my words)
This is a command. You need an the plural third person imperative prefix on
{Qoy}. You had {yI-} before and this was wrong because it did not agree with
the object. {mu'meywIj tIQoy}. If anyone does not understand why this is
so, ask.
Two options regarding this sentence.
1. I'm not sure whether the spirits here are able to speak or not. If they
are, it says "whom all spirits everywhere are willing to approach." If you
don't wish to give the idea of the spitrits being scattered everywhere, then
use the {-pu'} plural. I like it the way it is, but you should know what
you are saying.
2. The phrase {joHwI' lughoSqangbogh Hoch qa'mey} can mean either "the lord
whom all spirits everywhere are willing to approach" OR "all spirits
everywhere who are willing to approach the lord." I don't have a problem
with the ambiguity. I feel that people will know what you mean and that the
vague implication that the spirits are being asked to hear adds not
subtracts. However, if you want to
be absolutely specific, you can mark the noun that is supposed to be
modified by the rest of the clause, with {-'e'}, giving {joHwI''e'
lughoSqangbogh Hoch qa'mey}. This particular trick of grammar is NOT in TKD
or, as far as I know, in KGT.
> jaw, mayempu' 'e' yIlIj
qay'be'.
> on the other hand, in second part, there is complex sentences very
difficult > (for me) to translate.
And they become difficult for me to correct without actually doing the
translation, which I do NOT want to do. Again I am going to tell you some
of what is wrong but not spoonfeed you the corrections. Not all my comments
are things wrong. Some are merely alternatives.
> ghoSlI' - Following (Secuentia)
ghoS - approach, go away, follow a course. Is this what you mean?
> qaStaHvIS may'a' jajmey DI mojchoH qo' 'e' ja'chu' qun
> (The history said that the world will become dust during the days
> of great battles)
"great battle" is {may''a'} - you do not drop a final {'} when adding a
suffix that starts with {'}. Those who have KGT will see an opportunity to
use one of the new verbs of battle here, although the translation works well
with the noun.
Good word choice in {DI}.
{moj} already carries the idea of changing state, so {mojchoH}
implies "start to become."
{ja'} is a verb of saying. It doesn't take {'e'}. Reread section 6.2.5
Some might also question whether history can speak. Perhaps "history
records that" or "it is recorded that" instead.
> jaj tu'lu' Qu'mey* maH nunoHmoH nughoSDI' joH
> There will be a day when the lord will come us in order to judge
> our acts
"There will be a day we are missions he will make us judge when the
lord comes to us."
{jaj tu'lu'} does mean "there will be a day" but it's a complete
sentence on its own.
{nughoSDI' joH} does mean "when the lord comes to us," but only in
the sense of "as soon as the lord comes to us."
Expressions like "a day when" "a time when" "a place where"
usually need recasting. Most of the time you would be better off
making two sentences, in this case perhaps: "There will come a day.
That day the lord will come to us in order to judge our acts." Or
just "One day ..." mughwI' ghaH maghwI''e'. 'urmanglIj yIwIv.
Suffix problem on {nunoHmoH}
Reread section 3.3.4 on possessives: {Qu'mey maH} does not mean "our
acts." {Qu'} is a reasonable word choice. Consider also {chav}
and {ta'}.
> Qo'Daq qa'mey jach ghoghmey* chuS
> The loudly sounds will call the spirits to the realm
{qo'} not {Qo'}. {jach} means "scream, call out" not "summon." Try
something like "hail the spirits and cause them to enter".
> Hoch ghIj noHwI', narghDI' Hoch qa'mey yempu' 'e' DIlmoH
> The judge will scare ev'ryone, when all spirits appear in order to pay
> out what they had sin
Pretty close.
The English isn't completely clear here, but I get the idea "in order
to pay because they have sinned" would be a fair translation. The
purpose clause suffix is {-meH} not {-moH}, and it precedes the main
clause. Reread section 6.2.4.
{'e'} is used when one sentence is the object of another and not
for clauses with type-9 suffixes.
> naDev jImev. vuDlIj vIQoy'
> I'll stop here. I would like to hear your comments.
{vuDlIj vIQoy vIneH}
In general you need to make certain the prefix on a verb refers to
the real object and subject of the verb. You need to consider the
whole sentence, and if it's too much to consider, break it down.
That's not a slight against your ability to consider sentences, it's
a characteristic of Klingon: short sentences.
> wejHa' tlhIngan HolDaq Dochmey law' vIghojnIS.
> I must learn many things in Klingon yet
>PS1.: Dochmey law' means "many things" or "things is many"?
many things
> PS2.: wejHa' can mean yet?
Doesn't work for me. If it meant anything it would mean "now."
You can often get the idea of "yet" with {-taH}. {vIleghtaH} - I see
him yet. {jIghoSnIStaH} "I need to learn yet."
{-Daq} refers to physical location. Just {tlhIngan Hol Dochmey law'}
would mean "Klingon's many things," "many things of Klingon." That
would do.
Qov ([email protected])
Beginners' Grammarian
<qagh joy'>: rut qagh DaneH; rut DaneHbe' - majawtaHvIS Qanqor jIH je