tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Tue Mar 25 11:24:22 1997

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Re: KLBC&KBTP, Biblical translation



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>Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 12:31:18 -0800 (PST)
>From: [email protected]
>
>Dear David,
>
>I know that Biblical translation is not your forte, I thought that you might
>be able to get someone from the KBTP to help me.  

That might be me, I guess, since I'm Hebrew Scriptures Editor of the KBTP.

>I'm trying to translate the Order of the Mass.  
><Order of the Mass> vImughlI'. 'e' vInID.
>
>I'm borrowing heavily from..., I'm sorry.
>-vo vIngIpqu'taH.  jIQoS. (I know probably too idiomatic to translate
>directly.)

Actually not all that bad at first glance... but I don't know what ... is.

>I'm researching Mark's Gospel translated by Nick Nicholas. 
>De' QaQ'e' ghItlhbogh <marqoS> mughta' <nIq nIchyon nIqolaS>. 'e' vIQultaH.

Needless to say when I see "De' QaQ" I think "Good information", as a
description and not a name, as though you're complimenting Nick's work.

Using 'e' as you do, it looks like you're researching the fact/way/etc that
Nick translated the Gospel according to Mark (no relation).  I suppose the
alternative is a nested -bogh clause, which is also confusing.

>However there are words I need that neither Mark nor Nicholas use.  
>mu'mey le' vIlo'vIS 'ach mu'meyvam lo'be' <marqoS> <nIq nIchyon nIqolaS> je.

Remember, "-vIS" needs "-taH"; they go together like a horse and carriage.
I tend to think of "-taHvIS" as a *single* suffix, there's no suffix
"-vIS".  This is not a perfect way of looking at it, since you do have
"-taHneSvIS" and "-taHQo'vIS", but those are rare.

*blink*.  Actually, I think this was just a typo for "vIlo'nIS".  Never
mind.

>I've attempted but they're pretty shabby.
>mu'meyvam vImugh.  'e' vInID, 'ach ta'meywIg QaQbe'

Word-order in the last clause: QaQbe' ta'meywIj.

Be awfully careful here.  Don't translate words.  Thinking in terms of
translating this word and that word and then the next word is simply not an
approach destined for success.  Will Martin compared it to a jigsaw puzzle:
the idea is the picture, and the words are the pieces.  You can't translate
the puzzle by taking each English piece and trying to find a Klingon piece
that fits in the same hole.  Even if you succeed, you'll wind up with a
horribly unnatural sentence.  You have to go back to the picture, with no
pieces cut out, and re-cut it from scratch into Klingon pieces.

>My words
>mu'meywIj
><grace>, bIjbe'taHghach (the state of constant forgiving(yuck!))

A tough one.  "Grace" is a hard enough word to translate in English, let
alone Klingon.  Is it constant forgiving (and you have "not-punishing")?
Is it closer to qejHa'ghach?  qurHa'ghach?  webHa'ghach?  And it probably
won't wind up as a noun most of the time, if you work the translation
right.  Klingon tends to favor verbs.  Instead of "He has the grace of
God", I might expect to see "ghaHvaD qejHa' joH'a'" or something (for "God
is nice to him."  Granted, a lousy capturing of the concept also).

><Blessed be God>, joH'a' naDlu'pu' 

"God is praised...."  Not too bad, but it's more a statement of fact than
the English is.  I'm not sure if adding "-jaj" would help or hinder.

><to almighty God>, joH'a' HoSghajqu'vaD

In what sense of "to"?  Be careful.  I rather like "HoSghajqu'" for
"Almighty", though.

><Priest>, che'wI' (presider)
><Deacon>, QaDwI' (helper or maybe che'wI'Hom; lesser presider)

Hindsight words.  They might be fine in context, but a che'wI' is equally
likely to make me think of a boss, president, director... Who's the che'wI'
of my synagogue?  The president?  The Rabbi?  The person leading the
services?

><to everlasting life>, yIv taHDaq

In what sense of "to"?  Remember that "-Daq" is for the most part spatial.
I don't think "taH" can be used adjectivally like this.  "jubtaHghaH" is
perhaps a bit better, but also remember that you need not wind up with a
noun at the end of the day.

><saints>, ghotpu' ghob (people of virtue) 

That would be "ghob ghotpu'".  Also hindsight though.

>Nick Nicholas' words, are they still valid?
>lo'taH'a' <nIq nIchyon nIqolaS> mu'mey?

Do Nick's words still use *what*?  Careful with word-order.

Valid?  They're *Nick's* words; Nick is not a source of canon.  It might be
nice to conform to what he's done so there's some consistency, but his
suggestions do not carry weight like Okrand's usage.

><God, The Lord>, joH'a'

I think I came up with this one myself, as did several others
independently.  I think it works fairly well.

><bless blessing>, naD 

This works for me.

><sin> (noun and verb), yem

Verb.  So says the dictionary.  I don't know that we can use it as a noun.

><angel>, joH'a' QumyaS

Somewhat hindsight, though the "joH'a'" in front helps mitigate that.  It
might sound a little strange if I said "I was weeping alone in my jail
cell, bemoaning my fate, when suddenly a holy light fell upon me.  I lifted
my head, and saw... a communications officer standing before me!"  At least
if it's "God's communications officer" that gives us a hint.

>also Nicholas transliterates names; <'IHrIStoS>, <yeSuS>, <yeruSalem>, etc. 
>je tlhIngan QIchmeyvo  pongmey ghItlh <nIq nIchyon nIqolaS>
>
>Is this O.K.?
>chaw'lu' 'a'

I think the KBTP has been transliterating names, in general.  It's best to
flag such transliterations, so at least people realize they're names and
not words to be looked up in a dictionary.  In most situations it's best
not to transliterate, but the KBTP and KSRP etc. are a little different.
The FAQ touches on this.

~mark

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