tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Sat Jun 28 19:35:37 1997

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Re: KLBC story: puyjaq

[email protected] on behalf of Qov wrote:

> At 10:10 AM 6/28/97 -0700, SuStel wrote:
> >I responded to Qov's story and she wrote back:
> >
> >> >> ben law' rur HoD.
> >> >This is a bit confusing.  I read it as "Years ago, the captain resembled
> >> >him." 
> >> > What do you mean to say?
> >> Exactly that.  I can't think of a differently worded translation.
> >The wording is fine.  You're just lacking some detail for the reader to
> >focus 
> >on.  Maybe a sentence describing exactly what about him was similar.
> 
> The preceding sentences about the navigator being innocent and
> overenthusiastic were what I was referring to.  It wasn't important enough
> to belabour.  If, for reasons related to tlhIngan Hol, it doesn't make
> sense, then leave it out.

But it is related.  Often, when one writes in Klingon, the sentences may be 
perfectly grammatical, but too much content has been lost in the process of 
going from English to Klingon.  Or, because of differences in the languages, a 
vagueness which can be left in one makes it difficult to follow in another.  
My comment was to point out that "Many years ago he resembles him" is a bit 
vague to stand on its own, and that perhaps a bit of further explanation is 
necessary.  Of course, in English, you could say "He used to act the same way 
years ago," and everyone understands you.  But because Klingon sentences work 
differently than this, when you translated it, you lost some of the meaning in 
the original.  You've lost the focus.  This is what I mean.

> >> >> <De'wI'> jatlh HoD. <qon: Hovtay' tlh-ng-cha'SaD loSvatlh SochmaH 
> >> >> chorgh wInuDta'.
> >> >Given that we know little or nothing about the Klingon writing system, I
> >> >don't think we should go and assume that they'd abbreviate things like
> this. >>  It's just the catalogue number of a solar system.  TN-2478.  
> >But my response still holds.  I very much doubt that Klingons would 
cataloge 
> >things by the phonetics of the language.  They probably have symbols with 
> >names, or something like that, and we don't know those names.
> 
> Huh?  Of course they would use symbols. Probably pIqaD symbols. I don't have
> a pIqaD keyboard.  I half to use the Okrand transcription.  Is it too much
> to imagine that there exists at some point in the history of the Empire an
> organization that uses solar system designations consisting of two letters
> and four numbers?  Every Earth country I have ever been to uses the symbols
> of its writing sysem as part of codes on things like license plates and
> customs forms. Why the hell do you 'very much doubt' Klingons would do the
> same? Is this really a lingustic point?

Absolutely.  The {pIqaD} font from the KLI is NOT, absolutely NOT the writing 
system used by Klingons.  It's got a lot of symbols which they USE, but we 
absolutely do not know how these symbols are used.  For all we know, each 
symbol could be a sort of heiroglyph.  There's no reason to believe that the 
{pIqaD} system is a one-for-one phonetic mapping.

What you gave us was the assumption that those particular phonetic sounds 
represented particular symbols.  I have no way of knowing what those symbols 
are, and even knowing them, I have no way of knowing what they mean.

Now, I'm sure that Klingons DO use codes such as the one you attempted, but 
I'm also sure that we don't know anything at all about it.  I mean, how do you 
pronounce such a code?  Do you say a {tlh} and then a {ng}?  Do they have 
names?  This is not about what sort of code they'd use, but rather whether 
Klingon phonetics are used in coding at all.

Take it a different way: in English, one can use letters of the alphabet to 
code-letter something.  But you are NOT using English *sounds*, only English 
*letters*.  What's the code for the sound of "a" in "apple"?  That's a 
different sound than the "a" in "ape," but in English they're represented by 
the same letter.  How could you possibly use them in coding?

> >Okay, if that's what really happened.  I just found it hard to believe that 

> >someone could *accidentally* activate a ship's warp drive . . .
> >
> >> >Warp Factor 10?  These Klingons must be using the old-style Warp scale.
> 
> You're probably thinking, 'Qov sounds irritated.  Why did she post to KLBC
> if she can't take a little criticism?' I come here for criticism of tlhIngan
> Hol. It irritates me when the content of stories gets criticised by the BG
> along with the tlhIngan Hol.

Yo!  I wasn't criticizing!  I was pointing out that your lack of detail caused 
me to misunderstand what was happening.  Originally, all I read was that the 
navigator was avoiding planetoids, and suddenly somebody accidentally hit the 
warp drive.  It didn't make much sense to me.  Just because something makes 
perfect sense grammatically doesn't mean that it's understandable.

And the Warp 10 thing was simply my reaction, not a criticism.  Still, if you 
want to ask me how to say "The sun is black" I will tell you, but I'll feel 
this nagging urge to suggest that perhaps the sun isn't black at all.  But 
that who am I to say that?  I'm just supposed to check your grammar, right?

> It irritated mt when Deborah Kay was getting
> told every chapter of her story "Klingons wouldn't do that,"  right along
> with the "wrong prefix" corrections.

That's funny.  Deborah doesn't seem to have any complaints.  In fact, she's 
been sending me her stories privately to help her with them.  All I ever hear 
is praise.  If she thinks I'm doing something wrong (besides my slow response 
time; I'm almost finished with part 5, Deborah!), I certainly wish she would 
tell me.

> And it has confused me in your
> responses to my recent stories, then irritated me as I realize what is
> happening. If Qov, who has a pretty good grasp of the basics of tlhIngan
> Hol, is confused by corrections that aren't grammar corrections, then I
> would imagine some beginners are, too.

Hey, I'm NOT a human grammar-checker.  My job is to get people to *understand* 
Klingon, not spit it out correctly.  You, Qov, DO know the basics, and more, 
and so the beginners reading the post have a good model to go by.  I thought, 
therefore, that I could point out some more advanced things, like the need for 
more context, which I believe is necessary for good communication.  Am I 
wrong?  Does everyone WANT me to be only a grammar-checker?  If you say a 
sentence which is grammatical, but which doesn't make sense with the rest of 
the story, do you want me to keep quiet?

> If what the person seems to have said
> is so strange that the grammarian suspects it is the result of a grammatical
> or vocabulary error, then by all means point it out.  But if it just
> conflicts with your idea of what Klignons might do, refrain, or save it for
> a post when you aren't wearing your BG hat.

I'm really beginning to wonder if I've just been set up for a fall.

Most of the time, my ideas on what Klingons do or do not do are relevant to 
the language used in the selection.  Language and culture are very 
interlinked.  If you believe that Klingons wear smiley-face T-shirts and sing 
"Don't Worry, Be Happy," then I can show you how to translate things like 
"Have a nice day," but that's just not how the language is used!  It wasn't 
designed for that, and so you're saying grammatically correct nonsense.

And yes, sometimes I just give my opinions.  I can think of a couple of former 
BGs who are VERY good at that.

> Am I being unreasonably sensitive?

I think perhaps you are.  And that's not a criticism, really!  :)

> One of my very first posts to this list was a story.  And the first response
> to it was a comment on the STORY not the Hol.  Fortunately it was a positive
> comment.  Had it been negative I probably would never have come back.

::scratches head:: You want people to read your stories, but not to think 
about them?  Not to ask you questions about them?  Not to form opinions about 
them?

I'm sorry, but there's no way you can stop me from voicing my opinion: I liked 
your stories, and there's nothing you can do about it!  :-P

> Perhaps the foregoing will explain why in response to recent suggestions
> that I submit to jatmey, I say without hesitation: "never".  jatmey is a
> literary journal.  The works in it are there for evaluation/appreciation on
> their literary merit.  I do not wish to put my work in this environment. I
> would perhaps submit my work (in languages that have markets for fiction) to
> a commercial publication, under purely mercenary motivation.  I would NEVER
> submit it to a literary journal.

::continues to scratch head:: This doesn't make any sense to me.

Look, Qov, I am really at a loss to understand why you're upset.  Work with me 
here.  And everyone.  If I'm not doing a good job, or if I'm not doing what 
I'm supposed to do, or if you just don't like me, LET ME KNOW!  Feedback is 
good.  If I know what kind of help is needed, and wanted, I can give it.  In 
the past, I've gotten lots of messages saying "Thanks, you really got me to 
understand that."  This is most of the feedback I get, so I assumed that I was 
doing something right.  If you disagree, let me know exactly what's up!

-- 
SuStel
Beginners' Grammarian
Stardate 97492.4

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