tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Mon Dec 22 21:19:52 1997

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Re: KLBC: tera’Daq qoD leng

As Qov has explained earlier, translating the works of other 
writers is generally not a good place for beginners to expend a 
lot of energy. Since this has (a rather garbled example of) the 
KLBC header, I'll assume you consider yourself to be a beginner.

Briefly, the main reason translating the works of others is a 
bad idea for beginners is: In order to learn a language well, 
you need to know how to express thoughts with it. Thoughts. Not 
words. Thoughts.

When you start with someone else's words, you must first convert 
them into thoughts and then back out into words. But words in 
both English and Klingon have a certain degree of ambiguity, so 
as translator, you have to decide what the original author meant 
by a particular phrase in order to translate that phrase into 
the second language.

You can do this much better when working from your own thoughts 
than when working from someone else's words. Leave translation 
of other writers' works to those who no longer consider 
themselves needing guidance from the BG.

I'll add that translating the works of others leads to very long 
posts which can bury a BG rather quickly, especially since this 
kind of translation often involves a lot of mistakes, since 
beginning translators get forced into grammatical problems and 
vocabulary needs that they would not have with their own 
compositions.

There is also a kind of frenzy and lack of attention to detail 
that often happens when a beginner tries to translate large 
works. Quantity is not as important as quality when you are 
learning a language.

Meanwhile, I'll still address this.

On Mon, 22 Dec 1997 12:54:20 -0800 (PST) Eduardo Fonseca 
<[email protected]> wrote:

>     tera'Daq qoD leng vImughqa'. 
> (I resume translate the Journey to the center of the Earth)
 
maj.
 
> tera’Daq qoD leng
> Journey to the centry of the Earth   (Julio Verne)

maj.
 
>         ghojmoHwI' QeH
>         (The angry teacher)

maj.
  
>  qaStaHvIS wa'SaD chorghvatlh javmaH wej DIS jarvagh jaj wa’maH loS, 
> nom juHHomwIjDaq chegh vavwI’ loDnI’wI’.  

This is not the way Okrand has written years. voragh will 
remember better than I do, but I believe it would be {tera' DIS 
wa'-chorgh-jav-wej jar vagh jaj cha'maH loS}. Note that is 
{cha'maH}, not {wa'maH}. 

Note that you have one too many {-wI'} suffixes here, making the 
identity of the subject very confusing. He is "my father's 
brother", not "my father's my brother". {vavwI' loDnI'}. 

Also, consider possibly referring to "to his small house" as 
{juHDaj machDaq}. We know the house is small. We do not know that
its size indicates reduced significance. And realize that it is 
"his house" not "my house".

> *Lindembrock* ghojmoH 
> ghaH ‘ej *Hamburgo* veng yIn. 

This sounds like he is Lindembrock's teacher. The English sounds 
like he is a teacher named Lindembrock. I do like the rhythm of 
the translation to place the thought relating to his name and 
profession with this sentence instead of packing it into the 
previous sentence, though a relative clause could have placed it 
with the original sentence. This is not important.

We have a new word for "reside": Dab. It is better than {yIn} 
for this meaning. And don't forget the locative suffix on the 
place where one resides.

> Soj vutmeH paS Martha vutwI’ ‘e’ vItu’. 

Here, the English translation confuses me more than the Klingon, 
though both are a little off. The English sounds like the 
speaker talks to food. The Klingon sounds like you are talking 
about Martha's cook rather than Martha, the cook. Klingon does 
have apposition, so this might conceivably be correct, but if 
that meaning is what you want, you could either be more explicit 
(I noticed that the cook was late. Her name is Martha.) or you 
might at least change the word order so that interpretations 
other than apposition would be startling. {vutwI' Martha} 
doesn't make much sense as a noun-noun possessive, but it does 
make sense as apposition. {Martha vutwI'} really does look like 
{Martha's cook}.

I'll also note that this kind of use of {-meH} is a little 
controversial. It may be perfectly correct, but some people 
reasonably object saying that it sounds as if the cook is late 
on purpose, the purpose being that she cooks the food. In order 
that she cooks the food, she is late. The purpose of her being 
late is to cook the food. See?

It is a rather thorny controversy, too, because if this is a 
poor use of {-meH}, then how do we translate this thought? It is 
not easy to cast it some other way. Perhaps in this case it 
would work to say, {Soj vutmeH paw vutwI' Martha, 'ach paS.} She 
arrives for the purpose of cooking the food, but she is late. 
The "but" conveys this conflict between her purpose and her 
action.

> jIjatlh’egh: “ghungchugh vavwI’ loDnI’wI’ vaj jach ghaH”. 

While {ja'} normally has the object being the person spoken to, 
{jatlh} usually has the object of that which is spoken and an 
indirect object of to whom one speaks. Meanwhile, there is a 
special shortcut rule that allows you to have a first person 
indirect object referred to in the prefix as if it were the 
direct object. Can we extend this idea to include this kind of 
{-'egh} example? Perhaps it would be simpler to just use {ja'} 
instead of {jatlh}.

Again, "my father's brother", not "my father's my brother".

> leSpa’Daq jIHpu’ 
> lojmIt poSmoHvIS *Martha* ‘ej tlhob ghaH:

You need to get a better grip on aspect in Klingon. The English 
makes it clear what the sequence is. My being in the waiting 
room is simultaneous to the action of Martha's opening the 
door. {leSpa'Daq jIHpu'} means "I HAD BEEN sitting in the 
waiting room." The action of sitting was complete and I was off 
doing something else when the opening of the door occurred. 
See?

Also note that "when Martha opened the door" is an example that 
calls for {-DI'}, not {taHvIS}. Also note that {-vIS} is NEVER 
used without {-taH}.

And this ends how far I'm going in this translation. There are a 
lot of little errors here. If I correct too many in one session, 
you won't absorb any learning from it and I won't have time to 
address anyone but you. Sending a large volume of messy 
translation and requesting help with it is not productive or 
enjoyable for you or me.

>  - *Lindembrock* bIpawta’’a’. cha’rep ‘oHbe’. qatlh ‘eqqu’ bIchegh, qaH.
> vutpa’Daq ghoS vutwI’. ghojmoHwI’ vavnI’ loDnI’wI’ QeH vIleghqang..
> 
> leSpa’Daq ‘elDI’ jatlh *Lindembrock*:
>      - HIghoS Axel! malja’pa’ ghoghoSmoH
> pe’veIl jatlhqa’qu’: bIghoS’a’ bIghoSbe’’a’ ‘uS.
> 
> loD QaQ *Oto Lindembrock*. tlhIl DuSaQDaq ghojmoH ghaH. 
> reH Daqvetlh QeH mojchoH. tlhIlmey mu’mey Qatlh puS tu’lu’ ‘ej  
> jatlhlaHbe’chu’mo’ QeHchoH. ghom’a’vaD jatlhvIpchoH ghaH ‘ach 
> loD valqu’ ghaH. nagh mut Hoch Sovchu’qu’.
> 
>     At May 24 of 1863, my uncle, teacher Lindembrock returned 
> quickly to his small house. He lives in Hamburgo. I noticed that the 
> chef Martha was late with the food I spoke to myself: “If my uncle is hungry, 
> he’ll shout”. I was in the sitting room when Martha opened the door 
> and asked him: 
>      - Did you returned, Lindembrock. It’s not 2 o’clock. Why you 
> returned too early, sir?  She went to the kitchen. I was willing to 
> see my angry uncle teacher.
> 
>      When he entered in the sitting room Lindembrock said:
>  - Come here me, Axel  Let’s go to the office room.
> He spoke again forcefully: You will come or not?
> 
>      Oto Lindembrock was a good man. He was a teacher in a school 
> of mineralogy where he always becomes angry. There are many difficult
>  words of minerals and he becomes angry because he couldn’t speak 
> them well. He becomes afraid to speak to a crowd but he was very 
> inteligent man. He know very well all kind of stones.
> 
> 
> __
> Eduardo Fonseca || Belo Horizonte, Brasil
> Pau Brasil: The brazilian's VGA Planets home page
> http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/2460
> Hovmey DIvan
> 

charghwI', ru' taghwI' pabpo'
Temporary Beginner's Grammarian, December 20-30

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