tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Sat Sep 28 08:59:16 1996

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(KLBC) Re: "reH che' ta'"!! (INCOMPLETE)

At 02:06 PM 9/3/96 -0700, Dark Viper wrote:
>This is INCOMPLETE, but I would like you guys to tell me what you think (and
>correct any mistakes):


Okay. {{:)


>......................................
>reH che' ta'
>May the Emperor rule always


Actaully, this is "The emporer always rules".  I think you intended to have
-jaj "may" on <che'>, but forgot it (an easy thing to do).

        reH che'jaj ta'

I'd like to point this out as a PROPER use of -jaj!  The verb suffix -jaj
described on pages 175-176 of your KD does NOT mean "may" in the sense of
"Mommy, may I go out and play?"  It ALWAYS is used as Dark Viper tried to do
here, as a WISH that something occur--NEVER as asking permission.

Nice job of avoiding a common trap (even if you DID forget to put the suffix
on... {{:) )


>Qo'nos, chenmoHpu'DI',
>When the earth was formed,


Hm.  This was a very nice start.  I have only three comments:

1.  Watch your capitalS (Qo'no*S*)  {{:)

2.  When you have a phrase "when ....", meaning "as soon as", as you do here
(nice use of -DI'!!!! you avoided another trap, that of mis-using -DI' to
meaning "when" as in "when do we eat?", which is the question-word <ghorgh>!
majQa'!), you do NOt need -pu' or -ta' to indicate that it was in the past,
as we do in English.  What you really said here was "As soon as the Earth
had been formed"... i.e., as soon as the time after the earth was formed had
occured.  It's a really subtle difference in this case, and very hard to
explain... because -pu' and -ta' are NOT tense, and I have noticed that many
beginners have a hard time grasping the concept of "aspect", as opposed to
"tense".

3. You have no subject. {{:)  Well, actually, you do... he/she/it.  This is
really "as soon as he/she/it formed the earth".  This would be a very good
time to use -lu', the indefinite subject:

        Qo'noS chenmoHlu'DI'
        "As soon as the earth was formed"

Please note that the meaning did not change; there is no subject in the
English, and that is okay... but in Klingon, we need tpo explicitly SHOW
that there is no subject with -lu'.


>puqDaq 'angpu'ngoQ'a'.
>A destiny was shown to a child.


Ohboy.  This was a really nice attempt... first, it looks like you missed a
space between <'angpu'> and <ngoQ'a'>.  Again, you don't need -pu' here.
When you combine this with the first line, you have "As soon as the world
had been formed, a destiny had been shown to a child".  In other words, the
setting si:  the world has already been formed, and this child already knows
about this destiny.  I don't think this is what you wanted--this is the
difference between aspect and tense.  Your phrase "as soon as the world was
formed" sets the time/tense of the whole story you are about to tell.  If
you add -pu', you are putting it in the PAST of the time-frame of THE STORY,
rather than in the past of the time-frame of whent he story is being told,
as you would have to do in English.  Does this make any sense?

Also, -Daq is a LOCATIVE.  That means that there has to be a physical
location associated with the "to".  Unfortunately, English has many, many,
many other uses of the word "to", so you have to be very careful in how you
translate it.  In this case, using -Daq is probably incorrect, as there is
no physical location.  -vaD would probably be a better choice ("for the
benefit of").  I could be wrong on this, as misusing -Daq is something I
have been known to use, and I tend to over-compensate when I know I might be
in error. {{:/

Finally, <ngoQ'a'> is a really, really nice try for "destiny".  This is not
a correction, just a *suggestion*:  perhaps <San'a'> might be closer to what
you have in mind for "destiny"?


>boghta' chaH SuvwI'pu''e' Sep chu'.
>A new breed of warriors were born.


Hm... this wasn't a bad attempt... but it wasn't as good as your previous
ones.  {{:(

First, <Sep> has only one meaning as a noun:  "region".  <Sep> only has the
meaning "breed" when it is used as a verb, i.e., "to make two creatures mate
with each other iin hopes of producing offspring, usually with particular
traits".  For "breed" as in "class/type", I would recommend something like
<buv> "classification".  Also, you don't need to use the "to be"
contruction... that made your whole attempt from "gee, you just didn't
notice that this one word is a verb, not a noun, but it is otherwise okay"
to "gee, this is a while incorrect structure, and it is wrong, although I
can see what you were doing". {{:(

<bogh> is a verb, and should be followed by the subject of your sentence:
in this case, <SuvwI'pu' buv chu'> "a new breed of warriors".  Remove the
<chaH> and the -'e', and this would be fine.

As a side note, if you WERE using <SuvwI'pu' buv chu'> as the subject of a
"to be" construct, this would still be incorrect.  On page 50 of your
Klingon Dictionary, there is a very stange excpetion to the rule that
noun-suffixes always go on nouns... when you have a verb being used as an
adjective after a noun on which you desire to put a type 5 noun suffix, as
you do here (-'e' is type 5, and you wish to put it on the noun-noun
construction <SuvwI' buv>), it actaully goes ont eh VERB which you are using
as an adjective (in this case <chu'>)!  So, that would really be <SuvwI'pu'
buv chu''e'>.  Yes, it is strange, but then, so is the rest of the language.
{{:)

Despite my previous comments about tense and aspect, this is probably an
acceptible use of -ta' in your story; I will let the aspect-experts decide
that one, though.


>'ej jajvamDaq yIntaH Sepchaj.
>And to this day, their breed lives.


Again, <Sep> as a noun does not mean "breed".  {{:)
Remember my earlier comment about mis-using -Daq?  Well, THIS is a really
bad mis-use of it.  Why don't you just say:

        DaHjaj yIntaH buvchaj
        "Their breed continues to live today"

Or better:

        DaHjaj taHtaH buvchaj
        "Their breed continues to endure today"

You might also want to consider -vam instead of -chaj, but that is pretty
much personal preference here.


>ghom'a'ram SeH ta'.
>The Emperor controls this mighty force.


Um... I think you mis-memorized <ram> for "this"... "this" is -vam; <ram> is
"to be trivial/unimportant" or a noun meaning "night", neither of which
appear to have anything to do with what you were trying to say (quite the
opposite, in face {{:) ).  Also, I think you are stretching -'e' a bit here:
<ghom'e'> means a LARGE group... or perhaps a group of goups--the
great-grandmother of all groups!  It does NOT mean (although it might
*imply*) that the group is "mighty".  Perhaps you want <ghom HoSghaj> or
even <ghom'a' HoSghaj>.  This is more a stylistic note than a correction, as
I could see -'a' coming across this way in this context.


>'ej vuv ra''e'.
>And because of that, he deserves respect.


Um... looking at your English translation, I can tell you that you are not
even close.

"That" in "becuase of that" really means "that whole previous sentence/topic
that I just mentioned".  There IS a Klingon word which expresses this
concept:  <'e'> (not to be confused with -'e', the noun suffix!).
Unfortunately, <'e'> can have only ONE place in a Klingon sentence:  as the
object of the vern.  In order to say "because of that", you would have to
say ?'e'mo'?, which we are pretty sure is incorrect.  Fortunately, there are
a number of words/phrases which you can use to "re-cast" or "clarify" this a
bit more:  <qech> "idea", <wanI'> "event", <ngoQ> "goal", and <ghu'>
"situation" to name some of the more common ones.  I would recomment <ghu'>
for this sentence:  <ghu'vammo'> "Beause of this situation".

I'm not sure what <ra'> is doing in there, as it means "to command".  It
looks like you attached the noun suffix -'e' to it, confusing it with <'e'>,
the whole-and-separate word which means "that whole previous sentence just
spoken".

Please also note that <vuv> is a VERB, "to respect".  I would recomment a
recast here:  "because of this situation, one needs to respect the Emporer.":

        ghu'vammo' ta' vuvnISlu'


>........................................
>
>rInHa' 'oH. 'oH SuQub tlhInganpu' nuq?


Hm.. some might interpret your last sentence as "which of you Klingons
think?"  Just because it is a question and the word-order gets all flopped
around in English does NOT mean that the word-order gets twisted all around
in Klingon!  To get your word-order right for questrins with "what" or "who"
try this:

First, re-phrase it as you would if you were speaking the reply:

        "You Klingons think <blah>" ("blah" being the reply/replacement for
<nuq>.

Then, translate this sentence to Klingon, using <nuq> for "blah".  That
should help you keep your word-order a bit closer to true, as I didn't seem
to see you having problems with it earlier... This would be:

        nuq boQub tlhInganpu'?

Please note that I also changed your verb prefix to match the fact taht you
have an object, too.  {{:)

As for a response, I think I answered that pretty clearly... very nice
start!  I'm curious to see the next piece...


>--Dark Viper-----------------------------



--tQ

---
HoD trI'Qal, tlhIngan wo' Duj lIy So' ra'wI'
Captain T'rkal, Commander IKV Hidden Comet (Klingon speaker and net junkie!)
HaghtaHbogh tlhIngan yIvoqQo'!  toH... qatlh HaghtaH Qanqor HoD???
monlI'bogh tlhInganbe' yIvoqQo'!  SoHvaD monlI' trI'Qal...

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