tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Sat Nov 16 22:00:31 1996
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Re: q and Q (was: help with this.)
- From: [email protected] (Denny Shortliffe)
- Subject: Re: q and Q (was: help with this.)
- Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 06:00:23 GMT
>
>Denny Shortliffe writes:
>>...I have no formal training in linguistics but I speak three languages...
>>By some definitions, that makes me a linguist.
>
>That would be "a person who speaks several languages fluently." But
>The definition "a specialist in linguistics" is what I'm thinking of.
Sorry. My 1968 Webster's gives two definitions:
1) a person skilled in languages; polyglot
2) a specialist in linguistics
Therefore, both of us are linguists, just according to different definitions.
>>However, I never before heard of an "affricative"...
>
>I've never heard this term either. :) The terms SuStel used were "stop"
>and "affricate". The other common type of consonant is "fricative".
Yeah, o.k., my fingers or perhaps my eyes slipped. So sue me!
>>[quoting SuStel]
>>>If Okrand had said "Klingon {q} is a dorso-uvular unvoiced stop, and Klingon
>>>{Q} is a dorso-uvular unvoiced affricate," he would have been exact in his
>>>terminology, but nobody would have understood him.
>>
>>Right. But he could also have taken the time to describe and demonstrate
>>the sounds in ways that were free of jargon.
>
>That's exactly what he *has* done, describing them in "layman's terms"
>in TKD section 1, and demonstrating them in the audiotapes. I've not
>heard the Language Lab on the CD-ROM, but I assume they are described
>and demonstrated there as well.
Yes, and he described them at the Ontario Science Centre for me in a way
that definitely did not indicate that one was a stop and the other was an
affricate (I think that means that one brings the air flow to a full stop
and the other allows it to leak somewhat -- did I get it right?). Unless
it is that the extra force he indicated by "with an attitude" is what
causes the leakage in one case and the lesser force the lack of leakage in
the other?
>> That's not intended as
>>criticism of Okrand. However, since his remarks are taken as "canon", in
>>the absence of any other input, I have (according to the officials on this
>>list) to take him at his word. And his word appears, to me, to differ
>>from what you just said. He did say that the sounds {q} and {Q} were made
>>at the very back of the throat, behind where {H} is made.
>
>That's what "dorso-uvular" means.
So say so in English (or {tlhIngan Hol}).
>>He did not
>>indicate that there was any other difference between the sounds other than
>>the force with which they were uttered; in fact, it seemed to me that he
>>said there was no other difference. How else could one interpret "with an
>>attitude"?
>
>TKD's description of {Q}:
>"It is an overdone Klingon {q}. It is identical to {q} except that it is
> very guttural and raspy and strongly articulated, somewhat like a blend
> of Klingon {q} and {H}."
>
>This sounds like the difference between a stop and an affricate. You're
>apparently putting too much stock in the words "identical" and "just like"
>while ignoring the words "except" and "but".
>
>Listen to the words "dam" and "jam". Notice how similar the "d" and "j"
>sounds are? They are both voiced apico-palatoalveolar consonants, but
>one is a stop and the other is an affricate. One could describe "j" as
>"'d' with an attitude," but "j" is so common in English that it's not
>necessary.
Evidently, I speak with a different accent than you do. "D" is made with
the tip of my tongue briefly touching the gums just above the top of my front
incisors. "J" is made with a part of my tongue, about the length of the
first joint of my index finger back from the tip, almost but not quite
touching the roof of my mouth about the same distance back from where the
"D" is made. Therefore, I conclude that the two sounds are not that
similar. If I try to make a "D" but let it 'leak' I get a sound similar
but not the same as my usual voiced "TH" (as in 'the').
Oh wait! I just checked out my '68 Webster (I was checking my
English-French-Portuguese-highschool Latin translations of
'apico-palatoalveolar' -- how long do you have to go to school to learn a
word like that?) and found that the alveolar part refers to the ridge
behind the teeth -- first time I knew there was a word for that place.
O.K. That's where the "J" gets formed by me. And, it turns out, also the
"D" IF IT'S FOLLOWED BY AN "I", but not if it's followed by an "E". In
that case, it's formed at the top of the teeth as I said before. Boy, am
I learning a lot tonight!
So, O.K., that seems to conform to what I said about air leaking earlier,
doesn't it?
Qapla'
qrlIH veStaySortlhIH Sogh la' Lt. Commander K'rlikh Vestai-Shor-Klikh
tlhIngan wo' Duj qIj leng ra'wI' Commanding Officer, IKV Black Odyssey
Qanpu' pogh DuQ cha'DIch ra'wI' Deputy C.O., Mailed Glove Squadron
a.k.a.
--
Denny Shortliffe