tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Sat Nov 16 21:25:40 1996

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Re: q and Q (was: help with this.)

Denny Shortliffe writes:
>...I have no formal training in linguistics but I speak three languages...
>By some definitions, that makes me a linguist.

That would be "a person who speaks several languages fluently."  But
The definition "a specialist in linguistics" is what I'm thinking of.

>However, I never before heard of an "affricative"...

I've never heard this term either. :)  The terms SuStel used were "stop"
and "affricate".  The other common type of consonant is "fricative".

>[quoting SuStel]
>>If Okrand had said "Klingon {q} is a dorso-uvular unvoiced stop, and Klingon
>>{Q} is a dorso-uvular unvoiced affricate," he would have been exact in his
>>terminology, but nobody would have understood him.
>
>Right.  But he could also have taken the time to describe and demonstrate
>the sounds in ways that were free of jargon.

That's exactly what he *has* done, describing them in "layman's terms"
in TKD section 1, and demonstrating them in the audiotapes.  I've not
heard the Language Lab on the CD-ROM, but I assume they are described
and demonstrated there as well.

>  That's not intended as
>criticism of Okrand.  However, since his remarks are taken as "canon", in
>the absence of any other input, I have (according to the officials on this
>list) to take him at his word.  And his word appears, to me, to differ
>from what you just said.  He did say that the sounds {q} and {Q} were made
>at the very back of the throat, behind where {H} is made.

That's what "dorso-uvular" means.

>He did not
>indicate that there was any other difference between the sounds other than
>the force with which they were uttered; in fact, it seemed to me that he
>said there was no other difference.  How else could one interpret "with an
>attitude"?

TKD's description of {Q}:
"It is an overdone Klingon {q}.  It is identical to {q} except that it is
 very guttural and raspy and strongly articulated, somewhat like a blend
 of Klingon {q} and {H}."

This sounds like the difference between a stop and an affricate.  You're
apparently putting too much stock in the words "identical" and "just like"
while ignoring the words "except" and "but".

Listen to the words "dam" and "jam".  Notice how similar the "d" and "j"
sounds are?  They are both voiced apico-palatoalveolar consonants, but
one is a stop and the other is an affricate.  One could describe "j" as
"'d' with an attitude," but "j" is so common in English that it's not
necessary.

-- ghunchu'wI'

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