tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Sat Sep 09 00:20:14 1995

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Re: }} KLBC: Ring Rhyme again

On Fri, 8 Sep 1995, Eskil Heyn Olsen wrote:

> chal bIngDaq taHbogh {'elev}pu' che'wI'pu'vaD wej Qeb
>  nagh vaSmejchajDaq {Dorov}pu' jawpu'vaD Soch

A typo, that should be {vaSmeychajDaq}.

> HeghnISbogh jubbe' Humanpu'vaD Hut
>  Hurgh quSDajDaq Hurgh jawvaD wa'

When verbs are used adjectivally, they follow the noun. And when a noun 
has an adjectival verb after it, Type 5 noun suffixes are placed on the 
verb.  (Sec. 4.4.)
HeghnISbogh Humanpu' jubbe'vaD Hut
quSDaj HurghDaq jaw HurghvaD wa'

You could probably use {quS'a'} for "throne" to distinguish it from a mere 
chair.

> {morDor} puHDaq Qot QIbmey

This says, "Shadows lie in the land of Mordor."
The original "in the land of Mordor where the shadows lie" is a tricky 
thing to translate.  Sec. 6.2.3 gives "in the restaurant where we ate" as 
an example of a relative clause, but that section does not give an example 
of a relative clause using "where".  If you could make such a 
construction using {-bogh}, it would probably come out like:
*maSoppu'bogh Qe'Daq  (in the restaurant where we ate)
*QottaHbogh QIbmey [Mordor] puHDaq (in the land of Mordor where the shadows 
lie)

I've never seen a canon example of this type of construction, but TKD 
seems to imply such a constuction may be possible and it doesn't appear to 
be ambiguous.  I would like to hear some input from others on whether or not 
this type of construction seems feasable.

>  bIHHoch che'meH wa' Qeb bIH tu'meH wa' Qeb

I don't think you can create a compound noun using a noun and a pronoun.  
I had thought that "them" referred to the elven rulers, the dwarven lords 
and the mortal humans, in which case you would use {chaH}.  Your use of 
{bIH} would indicate that "them" referred to the other rings, which is 
something I had not considered before, but I can't really say which is right.

I would use {chaH Hoch} or {bIH Hoch} (all of them).  Glen Proechel has 
suggested that {Hoch} may be a number, in which case it would precede the 
pronoun.  This is a question we have wanted to ask Marc Okrand about and 
(as far as I know) we are still awaiting clarification.

>  bIHHoch qemmoH wa' Qeb 'ej Hurghghach pol bIH

{Hurghghach pol bIH} means "they keep darkness".  In HolQeD 3.3, Dr. 
Okrand indicates it is unusual to put {-ghach} on a bare verb stem, so  
if you needed a word for "darkness" using {-ghach}, you would use 
{HurghtaHghach} (the ongoing state or condition of being dark).  But in 
this case I would not use {*HurghtaHghachDaq} for "in the darkness" 
because {-Daq} seems to be limited to physical objects or locations and 
is not used with qualitative states or conditions, activities, or periods 
of time; you would use {-taHvIS} instead, i.e. {Hurghlu'taHvIS} (while it 
is dark) or ("in the dark").

I think {wegh} would be a better choice than {pol} so I would say 
something like {Hurghlu'taHvIS wegh}.

> {morDor} puHDaq Qot QIbmey
>  
> --- 8< ---
> 
> Another question reg. the suffix [-ghach]; as I understand it,
> eg. using it with {mob} ({mobghach}) would mean being alone as a noun,
> as in alone-ness/isolation. Is this correct ?

As I metioned above, it is not common to use {-ghach} on a bare verb stem.
Dr. Okrand's interview in HolQeD 3.3 indicates that you can use 
the Type 7 aspect suffixes with {-ghach}, thereby creating nouns with 
which have distictive meanings which no single English word can convey.
When used on a stative or qualtative verb (to be X), it means the state 
or quality of being X.

{mobtaHghach} the ongoing state of being alone, "isolation", "solitude"

{moblI'ghach} ongoing state of being alone, with a definite goal or 
stopping point in mind; a defined, ongoing period of isolation or solitude

{mobpu'ghach} a particular instance of being alone, a single act of 
isolation or solitude

{mobta'ghach} a deliberate instance of being alone; a deliberate, single 
act of islolation or solitude.

Note that the aspect suffixes are neutral as to time.  The last two 
examples don't neccessarily indicate a past event, just a finished one. 

With transitive verbs, {-ghach} indicates the process or result of an 
activity:

{chuptaHghach} the ongoing process of recommendation or suggestion, 
"recommending", "suggesting"

{chupta'ghach} a deliberate act of recommendation or suggestion, "a 
recommendation", "a suggestion"

{mughtaHghach} the ongoing process of translating, "translation" in the 
general sense.
E.g. rut muwuQmoH mughtaHghach.  (Sometimes translating gives me a headache.)

{mughlI'ghach}  the ongoing process of translating, with a definite goal 
or termination in mind; a translation in progress  
E.g. tugh rIn [Hamlet] mughlI'ghach. (The translation of Hamlet will 
be finished soon.)

{mughta'ghach} a deliberate act of translating; a finished translation
E.g. [Bible] mughta'ghachDaj vIlaDta'DI' QIv 'oH 'e' vIqel.
(When I read his translation of the Bible, I thought it was lousy.)

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> | Eskil Heyn Olsen   |  This signature (send money) contains no (send money) |
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yoDtargh

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