tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Sun Sep 10 14:16:03 1995
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Re: }} KLBC: Ring Rhyme again
- From: "William H. Martin" <[email protected]>
- Subject: Re: }} KLBC: Ring Rhyme again
- Date: Sun, 10 Sep 1995 14:16:03 -0400 (EDT)
According to R.B Franklin:
>
> On Fri, 8 Sep 1995, Eskil Heyn Olsen wrote:
>
> > {morDor} puHDaq Qot QIbmey
>
> This says, "Shadows lie in the land of Mordor."
> The original "in the land of Mordor where the shadows lie" is a tricky
> thing to translate. Sec. 6.2.3 gives "in the restaurant where we ate" as
> an example of a relative clause, but that section does not give an example
> of a relative clause using "where"...
Unfortunately, since I've moved, I misplaced my home copy of
TKD. Meanwhile, this strikes me as a particularly hideous
English example for him to have not given a Klingon translation
for, not just because it uses "where" as a relative clause, but
because it makes the head noun a locative in the sentence. It
is neither the subject nor object of the main verb. We've had
all kinds of trouble with this in less strange examples. Does
"On the ship in which I fled" ring a bell?
Making it one step simpler is still ugly: "I visited the
restaurant where we ate." It seems SOO much simpler to recast:
loSHu' Qe'Daq maSop 'e' Daqaw'a'? Qe'vetlh vISuchqa'.
or:
nuje'chu'ta'bogh Qe' vISuchqa'.
This seems to be as effective, but less controversial than:
*nuje'chu'ta'bogh Qe'Daq jISopqa'.*
And even this seems less controversial than:
*maSoppu'bogh Qe'Daq jISopqa'.*
Meanwhile, this pretty much is an expansion of what you suggest:
> If you could make such a
> construction using {-bogh}, it would probably come out like:
> *maSoppu'bogh Qe'Daq (in the restaurant where we ate)
It just gives me the Heebee Jeebees. I understand how this is
an expansion of Okrand saying that "in the restaurant where we
ate" is a relative clause. Perhaps he just meant that it is a
relative clause IN ENGLISH to help teach us what a relative
clause is in general, but that in Klingon, this is not
necessarily the case. TKD does have to function in part as an
English grammar text, after all, since many of the quarter of a
million buyers of TKD wouldn't know a relative clause if it bit
them, if not for Okrand's description.
I'm open for further discussion on this, but this example
doesn't really do it for me so far.
> *QottaHbogh QIbmey [Mordor] puHDaq (in the land of Mordor where the shadows
> lie)
Again, the problem strikes me as less one of "where" as
relative clause but even earlier of relative clause on a
prepositional phrase.
> I've never seen a canon example of this type of construction, but TKD
> seems to imply such a constuction may be possible and it doesn't appear to
> be ambiguous. I would like to hear some input from others on whether or not
> this type of construction seems feasable.
Is this helpful?
> > +--------------------+-------------------------------------------------------+
> > | Eskil Heyn Olsen | This signature (send money) contains no (send money) |
> > | [email protected] | subliminal (send money) messages (send money). |
> > +--------------------+-------------------------------------------------------+
>
> yoDtargh
The rest of the post was up to yoDtargh's usual high standard
and I could not meaningfully comment on it.
charghwI'
--
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