tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Fri Jan 07 07:48:40 2011
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RE: mu'tlheghvam yIlughmoH
> chay' van bomvam? wej 'e' vISov.
I'm under the impression that van is transitive and that the object is that which ends.
chay' vanlu' bomvam.
>From http://klingonska.org/canon/search/?file=2003-06-holqed-12-2.txt&get=source:
-------------
leng vanDI' SuvwI'pu' 'IQ chaH.
At the end of the voyage, the warriors are sad.
lit. When the warriors end the journey, they are sad.
bom vanDI' SuvwI'pu' tlhutlh chaH
At the end of the song, the warriors drink
lit. "when the warriors end the song, they drink"
-------------
Not sure why the lu- prefix isn't used here (neither for van nor ghang). Do you think this is an exception or a mistake?
________________________________________
From: [email protected] [[email protected]] on behalf of Steven Boozer [[email protected]]
Sent: Friday, January 07, 2011 16:17
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: mu'tlheghvam yIlughmoH
Still another way of asking this question is with a verb {van} "end (an event)":
chay' van bomvam? wej 'e' vISov.
How does this song end? I don't know [that] yet.
HQ 12.2 p.8-9: Generally, one expresses the end of a stretch of time by using a verb rather than a noun. That is, one says "when the month ends" rather than "at the end of the month". The verb for this kind of end is {Dor} [...] When an event over which one has some control ends (one can't cause a month to end), a different verb is used: {van}. This would apply to such things as voyages, battles, plays, operas, stories, and songs. Here, the event (the voyage, the song) doesn't end; the participant in the event or the perpetrator of the event ends it. [...] Note that the voyage and the song cannot end themselves. Someone has to end them. [...]
There is a difference between the end of the performance of a song or opera or play, indicated by making use of the verbs {van} and {ghang} ["end (an event) prematurely"], and the ending, or final portion, of a song or opera or play itself. For an opera, play, story, speech, and so on, the final portion is its {bertlham}. This word usually refers to the last aria or other musical portion in an opera, last speech in a play, last sentence or so of a story or an address [...] For a song--but only for a song--the final portion is its {'o'megh}. Parallel to {bertlham}, {'o'megh} is the final phrase or so of the song, one that brings the song to a definite conclusion. All songs have endings ({'o'meghmey}), some more elaborate or stirring than others.
--
Voragh
Ca'Non Master of the Klingons
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
> On Behalf Of lojmIt tI'wI' nuv
> Sent: Friday, January 07, 2011 8:17 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: mu'tlheghvam yIlughmoH
>
> A more direct way to say this would perhaps be {bomvam 'o'meH
> vISovbe'.} You seem to go way out of your way to force {'e'} into
> sentences that don't need it. You also really like pronouns.
>
> One of Okrand's goals in designing Klingon was to get rid of the verb
> "to be", and then working with real scripts, he conceded, "Okay, you
> can use pronouns for 'to be'." There are not a lot of examples of him
> using it, and when he does, it tends to be very straightforward, like
> {tlhIngan maH}. English speakers LOVE the various forms of the word "to
> be" and "to go" and "to do" and we pad most of our sentence with them.
>
> Klingon is not encoded English. It is an alien language. Your mind is
> supposed to work differently when you are speaking Klingon than it does
> when you are speaking English. That's the fun part of using it for me.
> I like having to think differently.
>
> Step one is to simplify. Boil the meaning down to its essence, then
> build a Klingon sentence with that essence, dumping "to be" whenever
> you can. There are times when it is just the right thing, like
> {tlhIngan maH}. But much of the time, you don't need "to be". You also
> usually don't need sentences tied to other sentences. You can simplify
> things down to nuggets. It's an attitude as much as it is a process.
>
> In my opinion.
>
> pItlh.
> lojmIt tI'wI' nuv
>
>
>
> On Jan 7, 2011, at 8:22 AM, Felix Malmenbeck wrote:
>
> >> {nuq 'oH bomvam 'o'megh 'e' wej vISov}
> > {nuq 'oH bomvam 'o'megh'e'. wej vISov.} DaghItlh 'e' DaHechpu''a'.
> >
> > {How does this song end? I don't know yet.}
> > bIlugh.
> >
> > jISIv, lughlaH'a' mu'tlheghmey. jISovchu'be'. lughlaH nuvpu'. 'e'
> vISov *canon*mo'. ...'ej lughlaHlaw' Sormey.
> > mu'tlheghmey nuvpu' je vIDelmeH wa' mu' DIvI' Hol vIjatlhtaHvIS. 'a
> SoSwI' Hol vIjatlhtaHvIS pIm ghu'.
> > Sov'a' vay'.
> > ________________________________________
> > From: [email protected] [[email protected]] on
> behalf of Ruben Molina [[email protected]]
> > Sent: Friday, January 07, 2011 04:37
> > To: [email protected]
> > Subject: mu'tlheghvam yIlughmoH
> >
> > juppu' Savan,
> >
> > {nuq 'oH bomvam 'o'megh 'e' wej vISov} qar'a'
> > yIlughmoH qarbe'chugh mu'tlheghvam.
> >
> > ruben
> >
> >
>
>
>