tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Sun Nov 05 06:03:21 2006

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RE: A tangled knot of subordinate clauses

Agnieszka Solska ([email protected]) [KLI Member] [Hol po'wI']

mu'tlhegh qel mIq'ey:

: I know you believe you understand what you think I said,
: but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.

mu'tlheghvam mugh 'e' nID:

: "vIjatlhlaw'pu'bogh Dayaj 'e' DaHar 'e' vISov
: 'ach Doch vIHechpu'bogh 'oHbe' Doch'e' DaQoypu'bogh
: 'e' Datlhojbejbe'.

SIv. ja':

:As you see, "what you think I said" gave me some trouble.
:For lack of anything better I settled on "what I apparently
:said". Similarly, I rendered "I'm not sure you realize" as
:"you do not certainly realize." These may be adequate,
:but I'd like to know if there's a way to express the idea
:that the saying is not just apparent, but apparent to _you_,
:and the realizing is not just uncertain, but uncertain to _me_.
:Nothing I've found in TKD (my sole reference at this point)
:seems to fit the bill.

jISovbe'.

:Are there better ways of saying "what" (= "that which")
:than {Doch} plus a verb with {-bogh}?

I doubt the Klingon word {Doch} should be used here. Unlike the English word 
"thing", it probably only refers to material objects. I believe one of the 
options we have is to use the indefinite pronoun {vay'}:

    vay' vIjatlhpu'bogh Dayaj
    You understand what I said.

This use of {vay'} to mean "that which" is supported by TKW p. 149:

    vay' DaneHbogh yIchargh.
    Conquer what you desire.

Alternatively we can try and figure out what the English noun "thing" refers 
to and provide that referent in Klingon. Now, the "things" we say are words, 
sentences, which in turn express ideas. This would give us

    mu'mey vIjatlhpu'bogh Dayaj
    You understand the words I said.

    qechmey'e' 'oSbogh mu'meywIj Dayaj
    You understand the ideas represented by my words.

:Is there a word for "statement" or "message"

There is {QIn} meaning "message". We have no word for "statement," nor do we 
have nouns meaning "question" or "command". In some contexts, e.g. when 
talking about grammar, not when translating your sentence, we could perhaps 
refer to different types of sentences using:
  - maqbogh mu'tlhegh to mean "declarative sentence,"
  - ghelbogh mu'tlhegh to mean "interrogative sentence,"
  - ra'bogh mu'tlhegh to mean imperative sentence.

:I'm also not sure of the usage of some of the verbs,
:particularly {Hech}. TKD gives this as "intend, mean to,"
:which I don't find particularly clear. Can it be used with
:a nominal object, or is it construed only with verbs?
:How does the latter work syntactically?

    {HIv tlhInganpu'} bIjatlhpu' 'e' DaHech
    'ach {QIv tlhInganpu'} bIjatlh.

    You intended to say: "Klingons attack" but
    you said: "Klingons are inferior".

:Sov luneH tlhobbogh yabDu'
:(if brain = body part, or perhaps {yabpu'}
:if mind = person by synecdoche)

In Klingon plural suffixes are optional. The prefix lu- already indicates a 
plural subject, so why not just say:

   Sov luneH tlhobbogh yab.

Now, {tlhob} also means "request, plead".
To avoid the ambiguity you could use {ghel} "ask a question".

   Sov luneH ghelbogh yab.

'ISqu'

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