tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Tue Jun 06 12:57:41 2006
[Date Prev][Date Next][Thread Prev][Thread Next]
Re: Questions in tlhIngan syntax (II) Double superlatives???
Jesse Morales:
>>I don't have a "Klingon for the Galactic Traveler" yet.
Voragh:
> >I've never heard of double superlatives. What is the difference between
> >"boldest of all" and "most boldest of all"? To me both the English and
> >Klingon sound ungrammatical or - for the descriptive linguists -
> >uneducated.
Jesse:
>>Your thoughts on the grammaticality of the English is understandable
>>considering such expressions persist today only in nonstandard dialects.
>>Perhaps the notion of double-superlatives, subsisting for implication of
>>'double' emphases, can't or rather shouldn't be something translated.
Agreed.
Trying to duplicate a pattern too closely from one language to another
doesn't work. For example, the double negative in English is considered an
uneducated "error" by purists or prescriptivists, but double (and sometime
triple) negatives are actually required by some languages: e.g.
Russian. Translating *Ya nichego ne videl* ("I didn't see anything")
literally as "I didn't see nothing" would wrongly come off as sub-standard
in English, although it's perfectly good standard Russian. (There are
certainly sub-standard grammatical forms in Russian and it's dialects, but
AFAIK using double negatives like we do in English isn't part of
them.) I'm not sure how a Klingon would perceive an double negative by a
foreigner in Klingon. Ditto for double superlatives.
OTOH we do know a little about non- and sub-standard forms in Klingon. One
well-know non-standard regional dialect is that is Morskan, as naHQun
quoted from KGT (p22-23) in another thread:
>The speech of residents of the planet Morska has some identifiable
>phonological characteristics also. Most striking is the absence of the sound
><tlh>. Syllables ending with <tlh> in most dialects end with <ts>
>(pronounced as {ts} in Federation Standard {cats} in the Morskan dialect; at
>the beginning of syllables, instead of saying <tlh>, Morskans say something
>that sounds very much like a combination of standard Klingon <gh> and
><l>--that is, <ghl>. Compare, for example (Morskan/<ta' Hol>:
>
> ghIts/ghItlh "write"
> mats/matlh "be loyal"
> ghlIngan/tlhIngan "Klingon"
> ghlo'/tlho' "thank"
> ghluts/tlhutlh "drink"
>
>The Morskan dialect also pronounces <H> differently from the standard way.
>At the beginning of syllables, <H> sounds like Federation Standard {h} as in
>{hat}; at the ends of syllables, <H> is not pronounced at all:
>
> hIv/HIv "attack"
> ba/baH "fire [a torpedo]"
> hu/HuH "bile"
>
>Finally, <Q> at the beginning of syllables is pronounced the same as
>standard Klingon <H>:
>
> Hapla'/Qapla' "success"
> Hoy/Qoy "hear"
>
>Because of this pronunciation difference, sometimes speakers of the Morskan
>dialect and those of <ta' Hol> misunderstand one another. Words such as the
>following have been responsible for the loss of more than one life:
>
> Hagh: Morskan, "make a mistake"/Standard "laugh"
> Hoj: Morskan "make war"/Standard "be cautious"
> HoS: Morskan, "be sorry"/Standard "be strong"
KGT goes on to discuss differences in Morskan grammar (KGT pp. 23-24):
>Although the basic grammar of all dialects of Klingon is the same, there
>is some variation. The Morskan dialect, for example, does not put the
>suffix {-'e'} on the subject noun in a sentence translated with "to be" in
>Federation Standard (though the suffix is not missing in other contexts
>where it is used to focus attention on one noun rather than another within
>the sentence). Compare:
>
> Morskan: tera'ngan gha qama'.
> Standard: tera'ngan ghaH qama''e'
> ("The prisoner is a Terran.")
>
> Morskan: bIghha'Daq ghata qama'.
> Standard: bIghHa'Daq ghaHtaH qama''e'.
> ("The prisoner is in the prison.")
>
>Sometimes the {-'e'} is heard at the end of the subject noun in Morskan
>sentences of this type ({qama'} ["prisoner"] in the examples above),
>leading some speakers of {ta' Hol} to criticize speakers of the Morskan
>dialect for sloppiness, claiming that sometimes the {-'e'} is heard and
>other times not, with no apparent pattern. The critics are wrong: {-'e'}
>added to {qama'} in the Morskan sentences would have its usual focusing
>function (the sentences would mean something like "It's the prisoner who's
>a Terran" and "It's the prisoner who's in the prison," respectively), the
>same as it would have in sentences of other types. This grammatical device
>is not available to speakers of {ta' Hol} who, to speak grammatically,
>must use {-'e'} in sentences of this type whether wishing to call extra
>attention to the subject noun or not.
Whenever people try to include a regional rural or "hick" accent, they
usually resort to Morskan as it's the best known. There's some of it in
the KLI translation of "The Klingon Hamlet" in the famous scene with the
grave digger.
Another source of non-standard regional grammar is that of Sakrej (KGT 24-25):
>Another interesting grammatical difference is found in the way
>prepositional concepts ("above," "below," and so on) are expressed in the
>speech typical of the Sakrej ({Sa'Qej}) region. In Klingon in general,
>such ideas are conveyed by using a special set of nouns ({'em} ["area
>behind"], {bIng} ["area below"], and others) that follow the nouns whose
>position they are indicating. Thus, "behind the door" is {lojmIt 'em}
>(literally, "door area behind") and "below the table" is {raS bIng}
>(literally, "table area below"). A pronoun may be used instead of a noun:
>{jIH 'em} ("behind me"--literally, "I area behind"), {chaH bIng} ("below
>them"--literally, "they area below"). In the Sakrej region, however,
>possessive suffixes are used in place of the independent pronouns:
>{'emwIj} ("behind me"--literally, "my area behind"), {bIngchaj} ("below
>them"--literally, "their area below"). Using the possessive suffix
>construction when speaking {ta' Hol} will not lead to misunderstandings,
>but it will associate the speaker with the residents of Sakrej, which,
>depending on the political situation, may or may not be beneficial.
There's also a difference in the Klingon spoken by different classes:
>The diversity found in the Klingon Empire is to be expected because over
>the centuries, Klingons have conquered many worlds representing a variety
>of languages and cultures. Even ignoring the impact that absorbing these
>originally alien cultures has had, there remains variety within the
>Empire. There are the differences of age, of class, of region, and of
>participation in specialized activities. All of these differences are
>reflected in the way the people speak. In addition, there are occasions
>where strict adherence to grammatical rules and use of the most
>traditional vocabulary is appropriate, and other occasions where a
>somewhat different set of rules applies and newer words and expressions
>are used. There are even occasions, particularly during some rituals,
>requiring the use of ancient forms of the language. [KGT p.3]
>Ironically, members of the higher social classes are more likely than
>their lower-class counterparts to violate the normal rule involving
>possessives ("my," "your," "his/her," etc.). These special constructions
>are formed intentionally, however, so calling them "errors" would not be
>accurate. [KGT p.39]
>Vocabulary associated with class distinctions falls into two types: words
>used to refer to the upper classes and words used predominantly by one
>class or the other. [KGT p.40]
>The vocabulary used by the higher and lower classes, though for the most
>part the same, shows a certain amount of social variation. The lower
>classes are more likely to incorporate slang into their speech, though
>this is difficult to ascribe exclusively or even primarily to a class
>difference because it is true of the younger generation of upper-class
>Klingons as well. [KGT p.41]
>Similarly, certain departures from normal grammatical structure are also
>commonly heard. These may be categorized into four types. First, some of
>these formations are correlated with certain social groupings, such as
>social class or generation. [KGT p.168]
--
Voragh
Ca'Non Master of the Klingons